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<p class="MsoNormal">There will be a fate vs. the fate is
knowable. Not sure why people bring that distinction up as
interesting.</p>
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</blockquote>
<p>Shakespeare?</p>
<ul>
<li>when I first (age 12-16?) encountered Xtian whack jobs who
confronted *MY* illusion of <i>free will</i> with *THEIR*
illusion of <i>God-figure-given predetermination</i> , an
ill-formed version of the question began. </li>
<li>Godel and Turing added a nice formalism into my budding sense
of "all things computational" over the next 5-10 years.</li>
<li>Complexity Science put it into a more interesting (and
complex) frame for me over the next 10 years... </li>
<li>The current wave of ML/AI has retriggered it for me. But we
know I'm an easy mark.<br>
</li>
<li>Quantum theoretic and particularly computational framings, as
well as Digital Physics (ala Fredkin/Wolfram/et-al) give it a
whole new spiciness.</li>
</ul>
<p>I'm off to do my twice-weekly water-walking meditation, perhaps
such will help me recognize that all above are in fact
un-interesting.<br>
</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>steve smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 29, 2025 8:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] The entropy of thought<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="margin:0in">< <span style="color:black">The
interesting qu</span>e<span style="color:black">stion is
where exactly does the deterministic system turn into
something nondeterministic, and how?</span>><br>
<br>
It doesn’t. A deterministic system is a deterministic
system. <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">who might have first made the distinction :
"deterministic but not pre-stateable"?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>George offered:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<thead><tr>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center"><b>Year<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center"><b>Thinker<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center"><b>Conceptual Expression<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
</thead><tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">1931<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Kurt Gödel<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Incompleteness: truths not
derivable<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">1936<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Alan Turing<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Halting problem: uncomputable
predictions<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">1970s<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Heinz von Foerster<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Second-order cybernetics:
unknowability of future<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">1991<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Robert Rosen<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Closure to efficient causation;
entailment limits<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">1993<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Stuart Kauffman<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Adjacent possible;
unprestatable evolution<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">2005<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Gregory Chaitin<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Incompressible but defined
numbers (e.g., Ω)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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