<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/4/25 11:05 AM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MN0PR11MB5985E8CBA3F1D64C5C52DCE7C56CA@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator"
content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]-->
<style>@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Aptos;}@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}p.qt-msonormal1, li.qt-msonormal1, div.qt-msonormal1
{mso-style-name:qt-msonormal1;
margin:0in;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}p.qt-msonormal2, li.qt-msonormal2, div.qt-msonormal2
{mso-style-name:qt-msonormal2;
margin:0in;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}p.qt-qt-msonormal1, li.qt-qt-msonormal1, div.qt-qt-msonormal1
{mso-style-name:qt-qt-msonormal1;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}span.size
{mso-style-name:size;}span.font
{mso-style-name:font;}span.qt-size
{mso-style-name:qt-size;}span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;}span.EmailStyle28
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;
mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}</style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m simply extending from Dave’s cynicism.
Perhaps we should do our best to provide the means
consciousness and let it sort out the rest. If we are such a
valuable species, an intelligent being will see it. <br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I do generally agree with that on a hopeful day... and on a
pessimistic day I expect that the consciousness which emerges may
not normalize or calibrate to the larger (larger than the
noosphere it was trained on) context quickly enough to avoid
cutting off it's own nose (us) to spite it's face (life, the
universe, and everything)? <br>
</p>
<p>On a fatalistic day I recognize that the latter is inevitable or
not (as with Pieter's reference to futures' unknowability) and
either way, my fretting at it (or trying to put some spin on it
with the meager contact patch of my racket-string-mind and it's
fuzzy-ball-of-unfolding faux cognition/consciousness) is at best a
good distraction to keep me from interfering anymore with the
ultimate manisfesting of our neo-technical destiny.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MN0PR11MB5985E8CBA3F1D64C5C52DCE7C56CA@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>steve smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Limits to Growth<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 6/4/25 9:51 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Apex predators until AI gets embedded
into the financial markets, health insurance, into defense
systems, into biomedical interventions, into all white
collar work. <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think you are both reinforcing my point? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I think we (hominids, especially homo sapiens sapiens) rose
to Apex Predator status through a combination of our advanced
"cerebral cortex" complexity and attendant linguistic,
technological and social skills that depend on that
complexity. It is in (many of) our biases that the only/best
way to proceed as individuals and species is to be (alpha
individual or) apex predators. I can speculate until the
Aurochs come home about how we developed the aspiration (and
ability) to knock down (and skin and eat) everything we meet
from lions and tigers and bears to mastadons and blue whales
to bacteria and viruses. yay us. It is this conflation
between domination and thriving which I am perhaps calling
out.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Most efforts I see around "alignment" is toward either
utilizing these hyperlevers to dominate one another or the
resources of the planet. We might aspire or (force?) AI to
align with western capitalism, or XAI's/Musks interests, or
that of a Silicon Valley-MarALago
crypto-golf-space-social-media broligarchy, or that of the
(pick your favorite) church or nation or philosophical
tradition), but is that not perhaps a bit short-sighted,
narrow minded? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Admittedly I acknowledge, paraphrasing Churchill that "X is
the worst form of Y except for all of the ones we've
tried". <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Perhaps we are caught in the paradox of pre-determined vs
pre-stateable and/or a corollary to <i>Godel's halting</i>
and in fact must simply proceed to (F around) and then find
out? As Pieter gesture toward: (my perjorative paraphrase
acknowledged) "we can't know for sure, so why bother ourselves
with trying to do better or avoid the worst?"<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Limits to Growth</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Not
trying to be argumentative, but I fail to see the
significance of this kind of argument for the
superiority of AI.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Despite
John Henry's sole victory, machines can lay track a
thousand times faster than a human. Jets fly at orders
of magnitude faster and farther than any human-powered
aircraft has managed to do. Similar examples abound.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Even
animals exceed specific capabilities of humans.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">But so
what?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Despite
their frailties, humans are still The Apex Predator on
the planet. Humans build machines; machines do not build
humans.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Unless
humans are defined as <u>absolutely nothing more</u>
than symbol processing systems is it possible to assert
that an AI is vastly superior to humans. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 3, 2025, at 3:23 PM, Marcus
Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;overflow-wrap:break-word"
id="qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I can give you an example
of a way AI is vastly superior to humans.</span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<span class="size">I attach several megabytes of PDFs,
and code, and simulation outputs, and a reply is
seconds away. It doesn’t get back to me tomorrow
after it has skimmed them. It reads everything.
It finds bugs and inconsistencies, often subtle
ones. And it should do better than humans: The
GPU node answering my request is pulling about 6
kilowatts compared to my measly 20 watts.</span><br>
<br>
<span class="size">It is just silly to think that
humans will ever be able to do this without
Neuralink interfaces. The future is humans as edge
devices.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<p class="qt-msonormal1" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
class="size"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
on behalf of Prof David West <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>></span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
<span class="size"><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 3,
2025 at 12:59 PM</span><br>
<span class="size"><b>To: </b><a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>
<<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>></span><br>
<span class="size"><b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM]
Limits to Growth</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I
shared the Wilson quote with the list several
months back and it was pretty much trashed.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I do
not disagree with Roger, except that I do not
believe greed to be the core, or even fundamental,
problem. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">instead,
I would nominate the deep "anti-hubris"
conviction,almost universally shared, that humans
are innately weak, stupid, and powerless. Some
kind of "ovine-ity" complex that supports belief
in gods, strong-men, and 'influencers'. That which
allows us to be deluded into thinking that AI (or
AGI) is somehow superior to human beings.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I was
born into and raised within a religion that states
everyone, every human being, is an incipient
god—you just have to put in the effort to
learn—and yet I can probably count on two hands
the number of people I know that actually seem to
believe it.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
one-tenth of one-percent that seem to be immune
from this inferiority conviction become our
"leaders." And yes, these individuals do appeal to
the greedy and satiate the greedy (be they
oligarch cronies or voters) in order to maintain
power.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Advocates
for human potential and means for augmenting same
are marginalized or criminalized; an example of
the latter is J.Edgar Hoover asserting that
Timothy Leary was "the most dangerous man alive.")</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Yes, I
am that cynical.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">On Tue, Jun 3, 2025, at
2:01 PM, steve smith wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="qt-qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Roger Critchlow wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">The core problem is
that people are greedy little pigs. Some
are greedier than others and some are more
successful in pursuing their greed, but
we're all pigs and if offered the chance to
take a little more for ourselves, we take
it. Scale that up and it's tragedies of the
commons all the way down.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">-- rec --</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>and somehow, our elevating of individuals and groups
to positions of (political, spiritual, moral)
authority/power over ourselves (everyone else?) to try
to either limit this greed or mitigate its
consequences has had mixed results and coupled with
(other) technologies has lead to an iterative "kicking
the can down the road" which keeps raising the stakes
as the (only?) way to avoid the current disaster we
are facing?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Is there any evidence or suggestion that the emerging
AI overlords (monotheistic, pantheonic, animistic,
panconscious) will be more clever/able/powerful enough
to end this cycle?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Or (as I think Pieter implies) this framing is just
"all wrong" and there is something like platonic
"manifest destiny" that will lead us forward through
the chaos of our own technological shockwaves? Is
"the Singularity" just the instant when we reach
conceptual Mach1 and we catch up with our bow-wave in
the Kauffmanian "adjacent possible"? We just need to
keep accelerating until we break that "barrier"? <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">On Tue, Jun 3, 2025
at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="color:black">One
core problem is we have unleashed global
capitalism and seems to destroy the planet.
Once the planet has been destroyed and
polluted it will be difficult to restore.
Communism does not work because nobody had
an incentive to work since nobody owned
anything. Capitalism does not work because
nobody has an incentive to protect nature.
It means ruthless and relentless
exploitation of everything to make profit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="color:black">As
much as I would like to be hopeful about the
future I don't see radical abundance at all.
It is true that AI systems become more and
more powerful. They soon will be able to
take away even the good, creative jobs like
writing, translating, coding and designing.
This means massive unemployment. In
combination with high inflation this will
most likely be devastating.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="color:black">If
we look at the past what happened if prices
went up radically and jobs were lost on a
massive scale is that people become outraged
and angry and then some demagogue comes
along and deflects their anger and outrage
towards group xy [immigrants or black people
or LGBTQ folks or some other minority group]
which is to blame for everything and he is
the only man who can solve it because he is
a strong man, etc. and we end up in a world
world ruled by strongmen, each of them ruler
of a great power having a sphere of
influence and strategic interest in which
they allow no opposition. In this autocratic
world the big and strong countries decide
the fate of their smaller neighbors and
anyone who disagrees vanishes in an artic
gulag or horrible prison in mesoamerica.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="color:black">As
Edward O. Wilson said "The real problem of
humanity is the following: We have
Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions
and godlike technology. And it is
terrifically dangerous, and it is now
approaching a point of crisis overall."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">-J.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">--------
Original message --------</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">From:
Pieter Steenekamp <<a
href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Date:
6/2/25 2:06 AM (GMT+01:00)</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">To:
The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Subject:
Re: [FRIAM] Limits to Growth</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">It seems I’m
the only one here who’s feeling
hopeful about the future of humanity.
I don’t think civilisation is about to
fall apart. In fact, I believe we’re
heading towards a time of radical
abundance.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I was going
to prove this by asking my crystal
ball… but sadly, the batteries are
flat. So you’ll just have to trust me
when I say I know the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Of course,
many of you probably think you have
the real truth. And maybe you're
right!</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I guess the
honest thing to say is: the future is
unknowable. We can all make good
arguments, quote experts, and write
long replies—but there simply isn’t
enough evidence to say with high
confidence what the future holds for
humanity.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">To end off:
yes, I agree that without further
innovation, we could be in serious
trouble. But a strong counterpoint is
that, over the last few hundred years,
human creativity has helped us
overcome challenge after challenge.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Unless
someone shares a new angle I haven’t
heard yet, I’ll leave it here and
won’t post again on this thread.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">On Sun, 1 Jun
2025 at 22:41, Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">Texas uses a lot
more electricity than California
despite being a smaller economy.
What’s interesting is that there
is no one sink for that power.
It isn’t pumping (although there
is a lot of pumping), and it isn’t
residential air conditioning or
data centers. It’s bigger
everything and an appetite to use
power across the board.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
class="size"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on
behalf of steve smith <<a
href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>></span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>Date: </b>Sunday,
June 1, 2025 at 12:18 PM</span><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>To: </b><a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a> <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>></span><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>Subject:
</b>Re: [FRIAM] Limits to
Growth</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p>As we know, I'm of the school of
thought that (techno) Utopian and
Dystopian visions are two sides of
the same coin:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><peak-oil><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I think peak oil (fossil-fuels)
is a real thing, now matter how
much we slide the timescale with
innovative ways to suck harder or
deeper and burn it more
efficiently... and in particular
the side-effect of saturating the
atmo(bio)sphere with carbon
particulates, polymers (e.g.
microplastics) and molecules (COn,
CH4, etc) and the myriad attendant
not-very-healthy-to-most-life
chloroflouros and
Nitrous-this-n-thats and ... on
and on. We (in our
technofuturist way) pretend we
have maxwell demons or
geni-rebottlers or
pandora-box-refillers on the
drawing boards which will do their
work faster than entropy and in
the particular techno-industrial
concentrated-energy-fueled version
thereof. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Fossil fuels made us into an
incredibly energy-hungry/wasteful
society... I'm a fan of
Switzerland's (nominal) 2000W
society (aspiration), although the
human *animal's* basal metabolic
rate is <100W avg and peaks at
200-300W (burst performance
athlete). The the nominal
consumption for the western world
is EU (5k) and US (10k) of which a
big part from the infrastructure
and other "hidden" sources like
transport of food/goods across the
planet for our appetite and
convenience. The "global south"
is considered to make it on
500-1500W. 8B humans at
"subsistence" would demand 8tW
continuous and at US rates, 80tW
continuous. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I haven't resolved this against
DaveW's numbers but I take his to
be order-of-magnitude accurate on
principle. As we add supersonic
and orbital-vacation transport I
suspect we might jack that another
10X... not to (even) mention
power-hungry crypto/AI demands?
GPT (ironic no?) helped me
guestimate 40w/user (engaged)
continuous *currently*. A
significant fraction of a
carbon-frugal "budget" and a
measurable plus-up on our
gluttonous US (and even EU or CH)
versions? <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p></peak-oil><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><EV-enthusiasm><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I'm a big fan/early adopter
(tinkerer really) of "electric
vehicles" and renewable energy,
but the numbers just don't work.
I was hypermiling my Honda CRX
(fit my oversized frame like a
slipper or roller skate) long
before there were viable
production electrics or hybrids.
I had the back half of a donor
CRX ready to receive the rear
differential of a miata or rx7
(same stance, similar suspension
mounts) with a 90's brushless DC
motor as well as a pair of VW
cabriolets (running but one lame)
as well for the same conception
(early 2000s) when I scored a
year1/gen1 Honda Insight (and a
friend spun the CRX out in the
rain)... so I gave up on my
hypermiling (70mpg RT to Los
Alamos, power up, coast home) for
thoughtful Insight-driving. All
three of these models were order
2k lbs. Most vehicles are/were
3k-6klbs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Along came the Chevy Volt (2011)
and in 2016 I picked one up which
had been used up... or at least
the hybrid battery (at 166k
miles). A used (95k mile)
battery and a lot of tech work and
it was back to full function.
The VWs never broke 40mpg
hypermiling, the CRX clocked 70mpg
in ideal conditions, the Insight
topped 50-55mpg with careful
driving (hard to hypermile a CVT),
and with the PHEV nature of the
volt I can still pull >70mpg if
I ignore the input from the
grid. The old battery is
offering about 10kWh of capacity
for a homestead scale PV I'm
assembling from $.10/W used solar
panels mainly to buffer for the
PHEV charging. Unfortunately the
replacement Volt battery is
finally getting lame and
replacement is such a huge effort
this 15 year old vehicle will go
the way of many other 200k mile
plus vehicles. I've backfilled
with a low(er) mileage 2014 Ford
C-Max PHEV with only about 10
miles (compared to new-30 in the
volt) PHEV which I'm getting
roughly the same effective MPG
(still ignoring the grid input).
I'm looking for a Gen2 Volt which
had 50mile EV-only range
(otherwise very similar to Gen1)
as I might move *all* my
semi-local miles to Electric (and
supply them with used PV staged
through the upcycled EV
batteries?).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>FWIW, the anti-EV stories about
the extra weight yielding
accelerated brake/tire wear is
specious in my experience. My
*driving habits* in an EV (or
hypermiled conventional/hybrid)
obviate excess tire wear (no
spinouts, no
uber-accelleration/braking) and
even a thoughtless driver likely
gets more from regenerative
braking than any excess weight
abuse... I also claim that being
MPG/consumption attunes my driving
habits to fewer/shorter/slower
trips. I have owned a few
gas-guzzling vehicles in my life,
including one I commuted too far
in for a while... the 32 gallon
tank convolved with peaking gas
prices and a 60 mile RT commute
that year should have warned me
off... but instead I just closed
my eyes and ran my plastic through
the card reader 1.5 times per
week... my housing cost
differential paid the bill but
without regard to the planet. I
did give over to a carpool in a
30mpg vehicle (shared 3 ways) for
a while which really beat the
15mpg 1-person I was doing
otherwise. I went through a LOT
more tire rubber and brake pads in
that context than I ever did in
years of hybrid/EV ownership. Did
I say specious? Or at least
apples-orangatans?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p></EV-enthusiasm> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><Alt/Transport ideation><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I also have my 750W (foldable)
eBike which is (currently)
impractical to me (closest
services 10 miles of 4 lane) for
anything but recreation/exercise
and a 300W lower-body exoskeleton,
each of which has much better
"mpg" in principle (esp eBike)
when hybridized with human
calorie-to-kinetic conversion.
I've a friend (10 years my senior)
whose e-Recumbent-trike with
similar specs is his primary mode
of utility transport (under 20
miles RT). <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>All that said, I don't think
electromotifying 4-6klb hunks of
steel and glass with environmental
control suitable for 0F-120F
comfort for 4+ people while
traveling at 60+mph and making
0-60 accellerations in under 6
seconds is really a viable
strategy for the 8B folks on the
planet we want to sell them to.
Esp with a useful lifetime of
<15 years?(planned obselescence
aside?). Maybe
robo-taxi/rideshare versions in
the context of (mostly) walkable
cities (nod to JennyQ) and public
transport and general
local/regionalism is (semi)
viable. <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p></Alt-Transport ideation><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><Local/Regionalism><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p> I've got strawberry plants
making me (from compost and
sunlight) fewer berries in a
season than I just bought at the
grocery imported from MX for
<$3 (on sale)... and my while
I wait for my 3-sister's plantings
to produce a few months of
carbs/protein at-best the modern
fossil-fuel/pollution global
marketplace offers me the same for
probably several tens of
dollars? As a seed-saving,
composter with a well (that could
be pumped by solar but isn't) my
impact on planetary boundaries
could be nil to positive... but it
is hard to scale this up even for
myself, much less proselytize
and/or support my neighbors in
matching me. I cut Jeff Bezos
off from my direct support (via
Amazon purchases) when he aligned
himself with the other TechBros
aligning with the Orange Tyrant,
so I may well have reduced my
manufacturing/transport
appetite/consumption a little
(small amounts of that appetite
moved to local traditional
store-forward versions as well as
direct-mail purchases from
non-Amazon/big-box distributors).<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p></Local-Regionalism><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><TechnoUtopianism><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I am a reformed technoUtopian...
I grew up on "good old-fashioned
future" science fiction (starting
with scientific romances from the
early industrial age) and studied
and practiced my way into a
science education and a technical
career/lifestyle and wanted to
believe for the longest time that
we could always kick the can down
the road a little
harder/smarter/further each time
and/or just "drive faster". And
we are doing that somewhat
effectively *still*, but in my
many decades I've got more time
glancing in the rear-view mirror
to see the smoking wreckage behind
us, as well as over the horizon to
see how many of the negative
consequences of our actions land
on other folks who never came
close to enjoying the benefits of
that "progress". I guess that
means this erstwhile libertarian
has become a "self-loathing
liberal".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Or a convert to the Buddhist
ideal of "Skillful Means"?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p></TechnoUtopianism><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">On 6/1/25 10:10
AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="qt-size">I think you
are underestimating how much
progress has been made with
batteries in recent years.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="qt-size">California
has large solar resources,
and it is not unusual that
during the day the whole
grid is powered by solar.
Here is from last week.
Note the huge surge of
battery usage in the
evening. Tens of gigawatts
of generation power are
planned for offshore wind
too. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="qt-size">Generally,
though, I agree that much of
the planet is completely
addicted to oil, and there’s
no technology that will yet
handle air travel. Hydrogen
might work, but it will take
time. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="qt-size">The way to
break an addiction is to
have the addict hit rock
bottom. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="qt-size">There need
to be some scary climate
events. The prices for
energy need to increase
before people change their
ways. Redirecting energy
into AI is one way to bring
that to fruition. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><img
style="width:5.8854in;height:2.4583in" id="qt-_x005f_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:part1.OmMSYSQz.t0QKhNUt@swcp.com"
alt="A chart of different colors
Description automatically generated" class="" width="565" height="236"
border="0"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
class="size"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam <a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
on behalf of Prof David
West <a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" moz-do-not-send="true"><profwest@fastmail.fm></a></span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>Date:
</b>Sunday, June 1, 2025
at 8:27 AM</span><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>To:
</b><a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a> <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a></span><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>Subject:
</b>Re: [FRIAM] Limits to
Growth</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Unfortunately, it is
almost certain that there
will never be enough
'fossil fuel free power
stations' to supply needed
energy for electric
vehicles.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Data centers, driven in
large part by AI demands
and cryptocurrency will
leave nothing left over.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Some numbers:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Three Mile Island,
which is being
recommissioned to supply
power to a couple of
Microsoft Data Centers,
has a capacity of 7
Terawatt hours(T/w/h) per
year.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">In 2022 data centers,
globally, consumed 460
TWh, by 2026 this is
estimated to be 1,000
Twh. By 2040 projected
demand is 2,000-3,000 TWh.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Crypto adds 100-150 TWh
in 2022, 200-300 in 2030,
and 400-600 in 2040.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nuclear is unlikely to
provide more than 25% of
this demand.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Between now and 2040,
it will be necessary to
build 100 TMI-capacity
nuclear plants to supply
that 25%.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">If solar is to supply
the other 75%, it will
require between 66,000 and
80,000 square miles of
solar panels. (Don't know
how many batteries, but
the number is not
trivial.)</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Wind power, for that
75%, will require 153,000
to 214,000 turbines, each
requiring 50-60 acres of
space beneath them. (Also
the problem of batteries.)</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">It takes 10-15 years to
build a nuclear plant like
TMI, have no idea now many
dollars.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Neither solar nor wind,
nor combined, can be
installed fast enough to
meet this demand and,
again, have no idea of
cost.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nothing left over for
cars, the lights in your
home and office, or to
charge your phone: unless,
of course we continue to
rely on oil (shale and
fracking), natural gas,
and coal.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">On Sun, Jun
1, 2025, at 6:24 AM, Pieter
Steenekamp wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="qt-qt-m_4596097804870485599m_-2319753569289023829m_-1136272739487046623qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">This is
why I’m so excited about
electric vehicles—I feel
like a kid waiting for
Christmas! Add clean
fossil fuel free power
stations into the mix, and
voilà: abundant clean
energy, no miracle
inventions required. Just
some clever tech and a
whole lot of charging
cables!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">On Sun,
1 Jun 2025 at 12:57,
Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black">I
believe we all have a
slighty distorted view
because we were all
born long after
industrialization has
started and have seen
nothing but growth.
Industrialization
started around 200
years ago in Great
Britain and spread
shortly after to
America and Europe.
First by exploiting
coal and steam
engines, later by oil
and petrol engines.
Tanks, warplanes,
warships as well as
normal cars, planes
and ships all consume
oil.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black">Richard
Heinberg writes in his
book "The End of
Growth": "with the
fossil fuel revolution
of the past century
and a half, we have
seen economic growth
at a speed and scale
unprecedented in all
of human history. We
harnessed the energies
of coal, oil, and
natural gas to build
and operate cars,
trucks, highways,
airports, airplanes,
and electric grids -
all the esential
features of modern
industrial society.
Through the
one-time-only process
of extracting and
burning hundreds of
millions of years
worth of chemically
stored sunlight, we
built what appeared
(for a brief, shining
moment) to be a
perpetual-growth
machine. We learned to
take what was in fact
an extraordinary
situation for granted.
It became normal [...]
During the past 150
years, expanding
access to cheap and
abundar fossil fuels
enabled rapid economic
expansion at an
average rate of about
three percent per
year; economic
planners began to take
this situain for
granted. Financial
systems internalized
the expectation of
growth as a promise of
returns on
investments."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black"><a
href="https://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/the-end-of-growth-book"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/the-end-of-growth-book</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black">Heinberg
argues the time of
cheap and abundant
fossil fuels has come
to an end. There 1.5
billion cars in the
world which consume
oil and produce CO2.
Resources are depleted
while pollution and
population have
reached all time
highs. It is true that
humans are innovative
and ingenious,
especially in times of
scarcity, necessity
and need, and we are
able to find
replacements for
depleted resources,
but Heinberg argues in
his book "Peak
Everything: that "in a
finite world, the
number of possible
replacements is also
finite". For example
we were able to
replace the whale oil
by petroleum, but
finding a replacement
for petroleum is much
harder.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black"><a
href="https://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/peak-everything"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/peak-everything</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black">Without
oil no army would
move, traffic would
cease, no container or
cruise ship would be
able to go anywhere
and therefore
international trade
and tourism would
stop. On the bright
side no more plastic
and CO2 pollution
either. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black">In
his book "End of
Growth" Heinberg
mentions "transition
towns" as a path
towards a more
sustainable society
and an economy which
is not based on
fossil-fuels.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black"><a
href="https://donellameadows.org/archives/rob-hopkins-my-town-in-transition/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://donellameadows.org/archives/rob-hopkins-my-town-in-transition/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in">French
author Victor Hugo wrote
200 years ago that "the
paradise of the rich is
made out of the hell of
the poor". If rich
people start to realize
this and help to find a
way to a more
sustainable, livable
society it would be a
start.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">-J.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"><span style="color:black">--------
Original message
--------</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"><span style="color:black">From:
Pieter Steenekamp
<<a
href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"><span style="color:black">Date:
5/31/25 5:46 AM
(GMT+01:00)</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"><span style="color:black">To:
The Friday Morning
Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"><span style="color:black">Subject:
Re: [FRIAM] Limits
to Growth</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"><span style="color:black"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">I’ve always loved the
Simon-Ehrlich bet
story—two clever
guys betting on
the future of the
planet. Ehrlich
lost the bet, but
the debate still
runs circles
today.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"><a
href="https://ourworldindata.org/simon-ehrlich-bet"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://ourworldindata.org/simon-ehrlich-bet</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">This article nails it:
over the long
term, prices
mostly go down,
not up, as
innovation kicks
in. We don’t "run
out" of
resources—we get
better at using
them. Scarcity
shifts, but human
creativity shifts
faster.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">The Limits to Growth
folks had good
intentions, but
the real limit
seems to be how
fast we can adapt
and rethink. And
so far, we’re
doing okay—messy,
uneven, but okay.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">Turns out, betting
against human
ingenuity is the
real risky
business.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">On Fri, 30 May 2025 at
21:51, steve smith
<<a
href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>REC -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Very timely... I
did a deep
dive/revisit (also
met the seminal
work in college in
the 70s) into
Limits to Growth
and World3 before
the Stockholm
workshop on
Climate (and other
existential
threats)
Complexity Merle
wrangled in
2019.... and was
both impressed and
disappointed.
Rockstrom and
folks were located
right across the
water from us
where we met but
to my knowledge
didn't engage...
their work was
very complementary
but did not feel
as relevant to me
then as it does
now.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>In the following
interview, I felt
he began to
address many of
the things I
(previously) felt
were lacking in
their framework
previoiusly. It
was there all the
time I'm sure, I
just didn't see it
and I think they
were not ready to
talk as broadly of
implications 5
years ago as they
are now?<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6_3mOgvrN4"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6_3mOgvrN4</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Did anyone notice
the swiss village
inundated by
debris and
meltwater from the
glacier collapse
uphill? Signs of
the times or
"business as
usual"?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>- SAS<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">On 5/30/25 12:16 PM,
Roger
Critchlow
wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"><a
href="https://thenextwavefutures.wordpress.com/2025/05/20/limits-to-growth-was-right-about-overshoot-and-collapse-new-data/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://thenextwavefutures.wordpress.com/2025/05/20/limits-to-growth-was-right-about-overshoot-and-collapse-new-data/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">I remember the Limits to
Growth from my
freshman year
in college.
Now
Hackernews links
to the above
in which some
people argue
that we've
achieved the
predicted
overshoot for
the business
as usual
scenario and
the subsequent
collapse
begins now.
Enjoy the peak
of human
technological
development.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">-- rec --</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">.- .-..
.-.. / ..-.
--- --- - .
.-. ... / .-
.-. . / .--
.-. --- -. --.
/ ... --- -- .
/ .- .-. . /
..- ... . ..-.
..- .-..</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">FRIAM
Applied
Complexity
Group listserv</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Fridays
9a-12p Friday
St. Johns
Cafe /
Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">to
(un)subscribe
<a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">FRIAM-COMIC
<a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">archives:
5/2017 thru
present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> 1/2003
thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. ---
--- - . .-. ...
/ .- .-. . / .--
.-. --- -. --. /
... --- -- . /
.- .-. . / ..-
... . ..-. ..-
.-..</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">FRIAM Applied Complexity
Group listserv</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">Fridays 9a-12p Friday St.
Johns Cafe /
Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">archives: 5/2017 thru
present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">.-
.-.. .-.. / ..-. ---
--- - . .-. ... / .-
.-. . / .-- .-. --- -.
--. / ... --- -- . /
.- .-. . / ..- ... .
..-. ..- .-..</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">FRIAM
Applied Complexity
Group listserv</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">Fridays
9a-12p Friday St.
Johns Cafe /
Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
<a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">to
(un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">FRIAM-COMIC
<a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">archives:
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">.- .-..
.-.. / ..-. --- --- - .
.-. ... / .- .-. . / .--
.-. --- -. --. / ... ---
-- . / .- .-. . / ..- ...
. ..-. ..- .-..</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">FRIAM
Applied Complexity Group
listserv</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">Fridays
9a-12p Friday St. Johns
Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">to
(un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">archives:
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> 1/2003
thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">.- .-..
.-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ...
/ .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --.
/ ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..-
... . ..-. ..- .-..</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">FRIAM
Applied Complexity Group
listserv</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Fridays
9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe
/ Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">to
(un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">FRIAM-COMIC
<a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">archives:
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> 1/2003
thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">.- .-..
.-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... /
.- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. /
... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ...
. ..-. ..- .-..</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM
Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Fridays
9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe /
Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">to
(un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM-COMIC
<a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">archives:
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> 1/2003
thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">.- .-.. .-.. /
..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .--
.-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . /
..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM Applied
Complexity Group listserv</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Fridays 9a-12p
Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">to (un)subscribe
<a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">archives: 5/2017
thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> 1/2003 thru
6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">.- .-..
.-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .--
.-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ...
. ..-. ..- .-..</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">FRIAM
Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Fridays
9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays
9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">to
(un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">FRIAM-COMIC
<a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">archives:
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> 1/2003
thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. ---
--- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --.
/ ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..-
.-..</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM Applied
Complexity Group listserv</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Fridays 9a-12p Friday
St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">archives: 5/2017 thru
present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Attachments:</span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" type="1" start="1">
<li class="qt-msonormal2"
style="mso-list:l3 level1 lfo3"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">OpenPGP_0xD5BAF94F88AFFA63.asc</span></span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="qt-msonormal2"
style="mso-list:l3 level1 lfo3"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">OpenPGP_signature.asc</span></span><o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-.
... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .-
.-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group
listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns
Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Attachments:</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<ol type="1" start="1">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo6">smime.p7s<o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>