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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/4/25 9:51 AM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MN0PR11MB5985677683625752C69E1410C56CA@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Apex predators until AI gets embedded into
the financial markets, health insurance, into defense systems,
into biomedical interventions, into all white collar work. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I think you are both reinforcing my point? </p>
<p>I think we (hominids, especially homo sapiens sapiens) rose to
Apex Predator status through a combination of our advanced
"cerebral cortex" complexity and attendant linguistic,
technological and social skills that depend on that complexity.
It is in (many of) our biases that the only/best way to proceed as
individuals and species is to be (alpha individual or) apex
predators. I can speculate until the Aurochs come home about how
we developed the aspiration (and ability) to knock down (and skin
and eat) everything we meet from lions and tigers and bears to
mastadons and blue whales to bacteria and viruses. yay us. It
is this conflation between domination and thriving which I am
perhaps calling out.</p>
<p>Most efforts I see around "alignment" is toward either utilizing
these hyperlevers to dominate one another or the resources of the
planet. We might aspire or (force?) AI to align with western
capitalism, or XAI's/Musks interests, or that of a Silicon
Valley-MarALago crypto-golf-space-social-media broligarchy, or
that of the (pick your favorite) church or nation or philosophical
tradition), but is that not perhaps a bit short-sighted, narrow
minded? <br>
</p>
<p>Admittedly I acknowledge, paraphrasing Churchill that "X is the
worst form of Y except for all of the ones we've tried". </p>
<p>Perhaps we are caught in the paradox of pre-determined vs
pre-stateable and/or a corollary to <i>Godel's halting</i> and in
fact must simply proceed to (F around) and then find out? As
Pieter gesture toward: (my perjorative paraphrase acknowledged)
"we can't know for sure, so why bother ourselves with trying to do
better or avoid the worst?"<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MN0PR11MB5985677683625752C69E1410C56CA@MN0PR11MB5985.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Prof David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Limits to Growth<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Not
trying to be argumentative, but I fail to see the
significance of this kind of argument for the superiority
of AI.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Despite
John Henry's sole victory, machines can lay track a
thousand times faster than a human. Jets fly at orders of
magnitude faster and farther than any human-powered
aircraft has managed to do. Similar examples abound.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Even
animals exceed specific capabilities of humans.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">But so
what?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Despite
their frailties, humans are still The Apex Predator on the
planet. Humans build machines; machines do not build
humans.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Unless
humans are defined as <u>absolutely nothing more</u> than
symbol processing systems is it possible to assert that an
AI is vastly superior to humans. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 3, 2025, at 3:23 PM, Marcus
Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;overflow-wrap:break-word"
id="qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I can give you an example of
a way AI is vastly superior to humans.</span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<span class="size">I attach several megabytes of PDFs,
and code, and simulation outputs, and a reply is
seconds away. It doesn’t get back to me tomorrow
after it has skimmed them. It reads everything. It
finds bugs and inconsistencies, often subtle ones.
And it should do better than humans: The GPU node
answering my request is pulling about 6 kilowatts
compared to my measly 20 watts.</span><br>
<br>
<span class="size">It is just silly to think that humans
will ever be able to do this without Neuralink
interfaces. The future is humans as edge devices.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<p class="qt-msonormal1" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
class="size"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
on behalf of Prof David West <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>></span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
<span class="size"><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 3, 2025
at 12:59 PM</span><br>
<span class="size"><b>To: </b><a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>
<<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>></span><br>
<span class="size"><b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Limits
to Growth</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I
shared the Wilson quote with the list several months
back and it was pretty much trashed.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I do
not disagree with Roger, except that I do not
believe greed to be the core, or even fundamental,
problem. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">instead,
I would nominate the deep "anti-hubris"
conviction,almost universally shared, that humans
are innately weak, stupid, and powerless. Some kind
of "ovine-ity" complex that supports belief in gods,
strong-men, and 'influencers'. That which allows us
to be deluded into thinking that AI (or AGI) is
somehow superior to human beings.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I was
born into and raised within a religion that states
everyone, every human being, is an incipient god—you
just have to put in the effort to learn—and yet I
can probably count on two hands the number of people
I know that actually seem to believe it.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
one-tenth of one-percent that seem to be immune from
this inferiority conviction become our "leaders."
And yes, these individuals do appeal to the greedy
and satiate the greedy (be they oligarch cronies or
voters) in order to maintain power.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Advocates
for human potential and means for augmenting same
are marginalized or criminalized; an example of the
latter is J.Edgar Hoover asserting that Timothy
Leary was "the most dangerous man alive.")</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Yes, I
am that cynical.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">On Tue, Jun 3, 2025, at
2:01 PM, steve smith wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="qt-qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Roger Critchlow wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">The core problem is
that people are greedy little pigs. Some are
greedier than others and some are more
successful in pursuing their greed, but we're
all pigs and if offered the chance to take a
little more for ourselves, we take it. Scale
that up and it's tragedies of the commons all
the way down.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">-- rec --</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>and somehow, our elevating of individuals and groups to
positions of (political, spiritual, moral)
authority/power over ourselves (everyone else?) to try
to either limit this greed or mitigate its consequences
has had mixed results and coupled with (other)
technologies has lead to an iterative "kicking the can
down the road" which keeps raising the stakes as the
(only?) way to avoid the current disaster we are facing?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Is there any evidence or suggestion that the emerging
AI overlords (monotheistic, pantheonic, animistic,
panconscious) will be more clever/able/powerful enough
to end this cycle?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Or (as I think Pieter implies) this framing is just
"all wrong" and there is something like platonic
"manifest destiny" that will lead us forward through the
chaos of our own technological shockwaves? Is "the
Singularity" just the instant when we reach conceptual
Mach1 and we catch up with our bow-wave in the
Kauffmanian "adjacent possible"? We just need to keep
accelerating until we break that "barrier"? <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">On Tue, Jun 3, 2025
at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>>
wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="color:black">One
core problem is we have unleashed global
capitalism and seems to destroy the planet.
Once the planet has been destroyed and
polluted it will be difficult to restore.
Communism does not work because nobody had an
incentive to work since nobody owned anything.
Capitalism does not work because nobody has an
incentive to protect nature. It means ruthless
and relentless exploitation of everything to
make profit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="color:black">As
much as I would like to be hopeful about the
future I don't see radical abundance at all.
It is true that AI systems become more and
more powerful. They soon will be able to take
away even the good, creative jobs like
writing, translating, coding and designing.
This means massive unemployment. In
combination with high inflation this will most
likely be devastating.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="color:black">If
we look at the past what happened if prices
went up radically and jobs were lost on a
massive scale is that people become outraged
and angry and then some demagogue comes along
and deflects their anger and outrage towards
group xy [immigrants or black people or LGBTQ
folks or some other minority group] which is
to blame for everything and he is the only man
who can solve it because he is a strong man,
etc. and we end up in a world world ruled by
strongmen, each of them ruler of a great power
having a sphere of influence and strategic
interest in which they allow no opposition. In
this autocratic world the big and strong
countries decide the fate of their smaller
neighbors and anyone who disagrees vanishes in
an artic gulag or horrible prison in
mesoamerica.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="color:black">As
Edward O. Wilson said "The real problem of
humanity is the following: We have Paleolithic
emotions, medieval institutions and godlike
technology. And it is terrifically dangerous,
and it is now approaching a point of crisis
overall."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">-J.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">--------
Original message --------</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">From:
Pieter Steenekamp <<a
href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Date:
6/2/25 2:06 AM (GMT+01:00)</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">To:
The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Subject:
Re: [FRIAM] Limits to Growth</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">It seems I’m
the only one here who’s feeling hopeful
about the future of humanity. I don’t
think civilisation is about to fall
apart. In fact, I believe we’re heading
towards a time of radical abundance.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I was going to
prove this by asking my crystal ball…
but sadly, the batteries are flat. So
you’ll just have to trust me when I say
I know the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Of course, many
of you probably think you have the real
truth. And maybe you're right!</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I guess the
honest thing to say is: the future is
unknowable. We can all make good
arguments, quote experts, and write long
replies—but there simply isn’t enough
evidence to say with high confidence
what the future holds for humanity.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">To end off:
yes, I agree that without further
innovation, we could be in serious
trouble. But a strong counterpoint is
that, over the last few hundred years,
human creativity has helped us overcome
challenge after challenge.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Unless someone
shares a new angle I haven’t heard yet,
I’ll leave it here and won’t post again
on this thread.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">On Sun, 1 Jun
2025 at 22:41, Marcus Daniels <<a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
wrote:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">Texas uses a lot
more electricity than California
despite being a smaller economy.
What’s interesting is that there is
no one sink for that power. It
isn’t pumping (although there is a
lot of pumping), and it isn’t
residential air conditioning or data
centers. It’s bigger everything
and an appetite to use power across
the board.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
class="size"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
on behalf of steve smith <<a
href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>></span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>Date: </b>Sunday,
June 1, 2025 at 12:18 PM</span><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>To: </b><a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>
<<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>></span><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>Subject:
</b>Re: [FRIAM] Limits to Growth</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p>As we know, I'm of the school of
thought that (techno) Utopian and
Dystopian visions are two sides of the
same coin:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><peak-oil><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I think peak oil (fossil-fuels) is
a real thing, now matter how much we
slide the timescale with innovative
ways to suck harder or deeper and
burn it more efficiently... and in
particular the side-effect of
saturating the atmo(bio)sphere with
carbon particulates, polymers (e.g.
microplastics) and molecules (COn,
CH4, etc) and the myriad attendant
not-very-healthy-to-most-life
chloroflouros and
Nitrous-this-n-thats and ... on and
on. We (in our technofuturist way)
pretend we have maxwell demons or
geni-rebottlers or
pandora-box-refillers on the drawing
boards which will do their work
faster than entropy and in the
particular techno-industrial
concentrated-energy-fueled version
thereof. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Fossil fuels made us into an
incredibly energy-hungry/wasteful
society... I'm a fan of
Switzerland's (nominal) 2000W
society (aspiration), although the
human *animal's* basal metabolic
rate is <100W avg and peaks at
200-300W (burst performance
athlete). The the nominal
consumption for the western world is
EU (5k) and US (10k) of which a big
part from the infrastructure and
other "hidden" sources like
transport of food/goods across the
planet for our appetite and
convenience. The "global south" is
considered to make it on
500-1500W. 8B humans at
"subsistence" would demand 8tW
continuous and at US rates, 80tW
continuous. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I haven't resolved this against
DaveW's numbers but I take his to be
order-of-magnitude accurate on
principle. As we add supersonic and
orbital-vacation transport I suspect
we might jack that another 10X...
not to (even) mention power-hungry
crypto/AI demands? GPT (ironic
no?) helped me guestimate 40w/user
(engaged) continuous *currently*. A
significant fraction of a
carbon-frugal "budget" and a
measurable plus-up on our gluttonous
US (and even EU or CH) versions? <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p></peak-oil><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><EV-enthusiasm><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I'm a big fan/early adopter
(tinkerer really) of "electric
vehicles" and renewable energy, but
the numbers just don't work. I was
hypermiling my Honda CRX (fit my
oversized frame like a slipper or
roller skate) long before there were
viable production electrics or
hybrids. I had the back half of a
donor CRX ready to receive the rear
differential of a miata or rx7 (same
stance, similar suspension mounts)
with a 90's brushless DC motor as
well as a pair of VW cabriolets
(running but one lame) as well for
the same conception (early 2000s)
when I scored a year1/gen1 Honda
Insight (and a friend spun the CRX
out in the rain)... so I gave up on
my hypermiling (70mpg RT to Los
Alamos, power up, coast home) for
thoughtful Insight-driving. All
three of these models were order 2k
lbs. Most vehicles are/were
3k-6klbs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Along came the Chevy Volt (2011)
and in 2016 I picked one up which
had been used up... or at least the
hybrid battery (at 166k miles). A
used (95k mile) battery and a lot of
tech work and it was back to full
function. The VWs never broke
40mpg hypermiling, the CRX clocked
70mpg in ideal conditions, the
Insight topped 50-55mpg with careful
driving (hard to hypermile a CVT),
and with the PHEV nature of the volt
I can still pull >70mpg if I
ignore the input from the grid.
The old battery is offering about
10kWh of capacity for a homestead
scale PV I'm assembling from $.10/W
used solar panels mainly to buffer
for the PHEV charging.
Unfortunately the replacement Volt
battery is finally getting lame and
replacement is such a huge effort
this 15 year old vehicle will go the
way of many other 200k mile plus
vehicles. I've backfilled with a
low(er) mileage 2014 Ford C-Max PHEV
with only about 10 miles (compared
to new-30 in the volt) PHEV which
I'm getting roughly the same
effective MPG (still ignoring the
grid input). I'm looking for a
Gen2 Volt which had 50mile EV-only
range (otherwise very similar to
Gen1) as I might move *all* my
semi-local miles to Electric (and
supply them with used PV staged
through the upcycled EV batteries?).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>FWIW, the anti-EV stories about the
extra weight yielding accelerated
brake/tire wear is specious in my
experience. My *driving habits* in
an EV (or hypermiled
conventional/hybrid) obviate excess
tire wear (no spinouts, no
uber-accelleration/braking) and even
a thoughtless driver likely gets
more from regenerative braking than
any excess weight abuse... I also
claim that being MPG/consumption
attunes my driving habits to
fewer/shorter/slower trips. I have
owned a few gas-guzzling vehicles in
my life, including one I commuted
too far in for a while... the 32
gallon tank convolved with peaking
gas prices and a 60 mile RT commute
that year should have warned me
off... but instead I just closed my
eyes and ran my plastic through the
card reader 1.5 times per week... my
housing cost differential paid the
bill but without regard to the
planet. I did give over to a
carpool in a 30mpg vehicle (shared 3
ways) for a while which really beat
the 15mpg 1-person I was doing
otherwise. I went through a LOT
more tire rubber and brake pads in
that context than I ever did in
years of hybrid/EV ownership. Did I
say specious? Or at least
apples-orangatans?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p></EV-enthusiasm> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><Alt/Transport ideation><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I also have my 750W (foldable)
eBike which is (currently)
impractical to me (closest services
10 miles of 4 lane) for anything but
recreation/exercise and a 300W
lower-body exoskeleton, each of
which has much better "mpg" in
principle (esp eBike) when
hybridized with human
calorie-to-kinetic conversion. I've
a friend (10 years my senior) whose
e-Recumbent-trike with similar specs
is his primary mode of utility
transport (under 20 miles RT). <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>All that said, I don't think
electromotifying 4-6klb hunks of
steel and glass with environmental
control suitable for 0F-120F comfort
for 4+ people while traveling at
60+mph and making 0-60
accellerations in under 6 seconds
is really a viable strategy for the
8B folks on the planet we want to
sell them to. Esp with a useful
lifetime of <15 years?(planned
obselescence aside?). Maybe
robo-taxi/rideshare versions in the
context of (mostly) walkable cities
(nod to JennyQ) and public transport
and general local/regionalism is
(semi) viable. <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p></Alt-Transport ideation><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><Local/Regionalism><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p> I've got strawberry plants making
me (from compost and sunlight) fewer
berries in a season than I just
bought at the grocery imported from
MX for <$3 (on sale)... and my
while I wait for my 3-sister's
plantings to produce a few months of
carbs/protein at-best the modern
fossil-fuel/pollution global
marketplace offers me the same for
probably several tens of dollars?
As a seed-saving, composter with a
well (that could be pumped by solar
but isn't) my impact on planetary
boundaries could be nil to
positive... but it is hard to scale
this up even for myself, much less
proselytize and/or support my
neighbors in matching me. I cut
Jeff Bezos off from my direct
support (via Amazon purchases) when
he aligned himself with the other
TechBros aligning with the Orange
Tyrant, so I may well have reduced
my manufacturing/transport
appetite/consumption a little (small
amounts of that appetite moved to
local traditional store-forward
versions as well as direct-mail
purchases from non-Amazon/big-box
distributors).<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p></Local-Regionalism><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><TechnoUtopianism><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I am a reformed technoUtopian... I
grew up on "good old-fashioned
future" science fiction (starting
with scientific romances from the
early industrial age) and studied
and practiced my way into a science
education and a technical
career/lifestyle and wanted to
believe for the longest time that we
could always kick the can down the
road a little harder/smarter/further
each time and/or just "drive
faster". And we are doing that
somewhat effectively *still*, but in
my many decades I've got more time
glancing in the rear-view mirror to
see the smoking wreckage behind us,
as well as over the horizon to see
how many of the negative
consequences of our actions land on
other folks who never came close to
enjoying the benefits of that
"progress". I guess that means
this erstwhile libertarian has
become a "self-loathing liberal".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Or a convert to the Buddhist ideal
of "Skillful Means"?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p></TechnoUtopianism><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">On 6/1/25 10:10
AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="qt-size">I think you
are underestimating how much
progress has been made with
batteries in recent years.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="qt-size">California has
large solar resources, and it
is not unusual that during the
day the whole grid is powered
by solar. Here is from last
week. Note the huge surge of
battery usage in the evening.
Tens of gigawatts of
generation power are planned
for offshore wind too. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="qt-size">Generally,
though, I agree that much of
the planet is completely
addicted to oil, and there’s
no technology that will yet
handle air travel. Hydrogen
might work, but it will take
time. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="qt-size">The way to
break an addiction is to have
the addict hit rock bottom. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="qt-size">There need to
be some scary climate events.
The prices for energy need to
increase before people change
their ways. Redirecting
energy into AI is one way to
bring that to fruition. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><img
style="width:5.8854in;height:2.4583in" id="qt-_x005f_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:part1.MAHaMCpw.HQJqVX9h@swcp.com"
alt="A chart of different colors
Description automatically generated" class="" width="565" height="236"
border="0"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor">
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
class="size"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam <a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
on behalf of Prof David West
<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" moz-do-not-send="true"><profwest@fastmail.fm></a></span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>Date:
</b>Sunday, June 1, 2025 at
8:27 AM</span><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>To: </b><a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a> <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a></span><br>
<span class="qt-size"><b>Subject:
</b>Re: [FRIAM] Limits to
Growth</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Unfortunately, it is
almost certain that there
will never be enough 'fossil
fuel free power stations' to
supply needed energy for
electric vehicles.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Data centers, driven in
large part by AI demands and
cryptocurrency will leave
nothing left over.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Some numbers:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Three Mile Island,
which is being
recommissioned to supply
power to a couple of
Microsoft Data Centers, has
a capacity of 7 Terawatt
hours(T/w/h) per year.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">In 2022 data centers,
globally, consumed 460 TWh,
by 2026 this is estimated to
be 1,000 Twh. By 2040
projected demand is
2,000-3,000 TWh.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Crypto adds 100-150 TWh
in 2022, 200-300 in 2030,
and 400-600 in 2040.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nuclear is unlikely to
provide more than 25% of
this demand.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Between now and 2040,
it will be necessary to
build 100 TMI-capacity
nuclear plants to supply
that 25%.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">If solar is to supply
the other 75%, it will
require between 66,000 and
80,000 square miles of solar
panels. (Don't know how many
batteries, but the number is
not trivial.)</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Wind power, for that
75%, will require 153,000 to
214,000 turbines, each
requiring 50-60 acres of
space beneath them. (Also
the problem of batteries.)</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">It takes 10-15 years to
build a nuclear plant like
TMI, have no idea now many
dollars.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Neither solar nor wind,
nor combined, can be
installed fast enough to
meet this demand and, again,
have no idea of cost.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nothing left over for
cars, the lights in your
home and office, or to
charge your phone: unless,
of course we continue to
rely on oil (shale and
fracking), natural gas, and
coal.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">On Sun, Jun 1,
2025, at 6:24 AM, Pieter
Steenekamp wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
id="qt-qt-m_4596097804870485599m_-2319753569289023829m_-1136272739487046623qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">This is why
I’m so excited about
electric vehicles—I feel
like a kid waiting for
Christmas! Add clean fossil
fuel free power stations
into the mix, and voilà:
abundant clean energy, no
miracle inventions required.
Just some clever tech and a
whole lot of charging
cables!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">On Sun, 1
Jun 2025 at 12:57, Jochen
Fromm <<a
href="mailto:jofr@cas-group.net" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jofr@cas-group.net</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black">I
believe we all have a
slighty distorted view
because we were all born
long after
industrialization has
started and have seen
nothing but growth.
Industrialization
started around 200 years
ago in Great Britain and
spread shortly after to
America and Europe.
First by exploiting coal
and steam engines, later
by oil and petrol
engines. Tanks,
warplanes, warships as
well as normal cars,
planes and ships all
consume oil.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black">Richard
Heinberg writes in his
book "The End of
Growth": "with the
fossil fuel revolution
of the past century and
a half, we have seen
economic growth at a
speed and scale
unprecedented in all of
human history. We
harnessed the energies
of coal, oil, and
natural gas to build and
operate cars, trucks,
highways, airports,
airplanes, and electric
grids - all the esential
features of modern
industrial society.
Through the
one-time-only process of
extracting and burning
hundreds of millions of
years worth of
chemically stored
sunlight, we built what
appeared (for a brief,
shining moment) to be a
perpetual-growth
machine. We learned to
take what was in fact an
extraordinary situation
for granted. It became
normal [...] During the
past 150 years,
expanding access to
cheap and abundar fossil
fuels enabled rapid
economic expansion at an
average rate of about
three percent per year;
economic planners began
to take this situain for
granted. Financial
systems internalized the
expectation of growth as
a promise of returns on
investments."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black"><a
href="https://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/the-end-of-growth-book"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/the-end-of-growth-book</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black">Heinberg
argues the time of cheap
and abundant fossil
fuels has come to an
end. There 1.5 billion
cars in the world which
consume oil and produce
CO2. Resources are
depleted while pollution
and population have
reached all time highs.
It is true that humans
are innovative and
ingenious, especially in
times of scarcity,
necessity and need, and
we are able to find
replacements for
depleted resources, but
Heinberg argues in his
book "Peak Everything:
that "in a finite world,
the number of possible
replacements is also
finite". For example we
were able to replace the
whale oil by petroleum,
but finding a
replacement for
petroleum is much
harder.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black"><a
href="https://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/peak-everything"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/peak-everything</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black">Without
oil no army would move,
traffic would cease, no
container or cruise ship
would be able to go
anywhere and therefore
international trade and
tourism would stop. On
the bright side no more
plastic and CO2
pollution either. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black">In
his book "End of Growth"
Heinberg mentions
"transition towns" as a
path towards a more
sustainable society and
an economy which is not
based on fossil-fuels.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="color:black"><a
href="https://donellameadows.org/archives/rob-hopkins-my-town-in-transition/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://donellameadows.org/archives/rob-hopkins-my-town-in-transition/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in">French
author Victor Hugo wrote
200 years ago that "the
paradise of the rich is
made out of the hell of
the poor". If rich people
start to realize this and
help to find a way to a
more sustainable, livable
society it would be a
start.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">-J.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"><span
style="color:black">--------
Original message
--------</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"><span
style="color:black">From:
Pieter Steenekamp
<<a
href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"><span
style="color:black">Date:
5/31/25 5:46 AM
(GMT+01:00)</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"><span
style="color:black">To:
The Friday Morning
Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">friam@redfish.com</a>></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"><span
style="color:black">Subject:
Re: [FRIAM] Limits
to Growth</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"><span
style="color:black"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">I’ve always loved the
Simon-Ehrlich bet
story—two clever
guys betting on the
future of the
planet. Ehrlich lost
the bet, but the
debate still runs
circles today.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"><a
href="https://ourworldindata.org/simon-ehrlich-bet"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://ourworldindata.org/simon-ehrlich-bet</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">This article nails it:
over the long term,
prices mostly go
down, not up, as
innovation kicks in.
We don’t "run out"
of resources—we get
better at using
them. Scarcity
shifts, but human
creativity shifts
faster.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">The Limits to Growth
folks had good
intentions, but the
real limit seems to
be how fast we can
adapt and rethink.
And so far, we’re
doing okay—messy,
uneven, but okay.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">Turns out, betting
against human
ingenuity is the
real risky business.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">On Fri, 30 May 2025 at
21:51, steve smith
<<a
href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>REC -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Very timely... I
did a deep
dive/revisit (also
met the seminal work
in college in the
70s) into Limits to
Growth and World3
before the Stockholm
workshop on Climate
(and other
existential threats)
Complexity Merle
wrangled in
2019.... and was
both impressed and
disappointed.
Rockstrom and folks
were located right
across the water
from us where we met
but to my knowledge
didn't engage...
their work was very
complementary but
did not feel as
relevant to me then
as it does now.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>In the following
interview, I felt he
began to address
many of the things I
(previously) felt
were lacking in
their framework
previoiusly. It was
there all the time
I'm sure, I just
didn't see it and I
think they were not
ready to talk as
broadly of
implications 5 years
ago as they are now?<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><a
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6_3mOgvrN4"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6_3mOgvrN4</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Did anyone notice
the swiss village
inundated by debris
and meltwater from
the glacier collapse
uphill? Signs of
the times or
"business as usual"?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>- SAS<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">On 5/30/25 12:16 PM,
Roger Critchlow
wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"><a
href="https://thenextwavefutures.wordpress.com/2025/05/20/limits-to-growth-was-right-about-overshoot-and-collapse-new-data/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://thenextwavefutures.wordpress.com/2025/05/20/limits-to-growth-was-right-about-overshoot-and-collapse-new-data/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">I remember the Limits to
Growth from my
freshman year
in college.
Now
Hackernews links
to the above
in which some
people argue
that we've
achieved the
predicted
overshoot for
the business
as usual
scenario and
the subsequent
collapse
begins now.
Enjoy the peak
of human
technological
development.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">-- rec --</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">.- .-..
.-.. / ..-. ---
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/ .- .-. . / .--
.-. --- -. --. /
... --- -- . /
.- .-. . / ..-
... . ..-. ..-
.-..<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">FRIAM
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<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. ---
--- - . .-. ... /
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--- -. --. / ...
--- -- . / .- .-.
. / ..- ... . ..-.
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<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-size">FRIAM Applied Complexity
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<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">.- .-..
.-.. / ..-. --- --- - .
.-. ... / .- .-. . / .--
.-. --- -. --. / ... ---
-- . / .- .-. . / ..-
... . ..-. ..- .-..</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">FRIAM
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(un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">FRIAM-COMIC
<a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">archives:
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> 1/2003
thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">.- .-.. .-..
/ ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... /
.- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -.
--. / ... --- -- . / .- .-.
. / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">FRIAM
Applied Complexity Group
listserv</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">Fridays
9a-12p Friday St. Johns
Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">to
(un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size">archives:
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> 1/2003
thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="qt-size"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">.- .-..
.-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... /
.- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. /
... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ...
. ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">FRIAM
Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Fridays
9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe /
Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">to
(un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">FRIAM-COMIC
<a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">archives:
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> 1/2003
thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">.- .-..
.-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .-
.-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... ---
-- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..-
.-..</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM
Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Fridays
9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe /
Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">to
(un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM-COMIC
<a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">archives:
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> 1/2003
thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-.
--- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. ---
-. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... .
..-. ..- .-..</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM Applied
Complexity Group listserv</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Fridays 9a-12p
Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">archives: 5/2017
thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> 1/2003 thru
6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">.- .-..
.-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-.
--- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... .
..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">FRIAM
Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Fridays
9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">to
(un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">FRIAM-COMIC
<a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">archives:
5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> 1/2003
thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. ---
--- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. /
... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM Applied Complexity
Group listserv</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Fridays 9a-12p Friday St.
Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">archives: 5/2017 thru
present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Attachments:</span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="qt-msonormal2"
style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">OpenPGP_0xD5BAF94F88AFFA63.asc</span></span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="qt-msonormal2"
style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">OpenPGP_signature.asc</span></span><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ...
/ .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. .
/ ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe
/ Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a
href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Attachments:</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">smime.p7s<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>