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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#212121'>Dave writes:<br><br>< However, there is one action a person can take that will get you exiled to "Hell." You can become a "Son of Perdition." But, you must have a perfect knowledge of God's plan and then reject it—think Satan in Milton's Paradise Lost. ><br><br></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>A simple argument against the view of God as omniscient: If she were to give humans the option of free will, it would mean she was not omniscient. Human actions would be unknowable, and not just because of Chaos.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> on behalf of Prof David West <profwest@fastmail.fm><br><b>Date: </b>Monday, June 9, 2025 at 12:21 PM<br><b>To: </b>friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Free will—ghost in the machine or just clever wiring?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Just for fun— let's differentiate 'free will' from 'Free Will'.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Using the Vedi/Buddhist concepts of "attached" and "non-attached" action to illustrate. A person who acts based on desire and the notion that what they do has an effect on gratifying that desire, exhibits "attached" action. But that is illusion, Maya, and not only fails, but brings about karma and misery. If one is sufficiently enlightened, they are 'omniscient" and the "correct" action in any circumstance is revealed to them and they can take that action without accruing karma and not suffering pain.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>In neither case can the action be considered an exercise of 'free will'.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>To illustrate 'Free Will' I use a concept from the religion in which I was raised. In that religion there is no such thing as "sin;" merely actions with consequences - like jumping off a cliff (action) falling and maybe breaking a leg (consequence). You can acquire knowledge and discern what actions have what consequences and conform your behavior appropriately, somewhat analogous to Vedic/Buddhist enlightenment.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Again, no 'free will'.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>However, there is one action a person can take that will get you exiled to "Hell." You can become a "Son of Perdition." But, you must have a perfect knowledge of God's plan and then reject it—think Satan in Milton's Paradise Lost.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Such an act would, to me, seem as if it was 'Free Will'.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>On Mon, Jun 9, 2025, at 1:56 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=qt><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>And it all makes perfect sense provided the measurer is also deterministic.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b></span><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp</span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><br><span class=size><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 9, 2025 11:44 AM</span><br><span class=size><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com></span><br><span class=size><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free will—ghost in the machine or just clever wiring?</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>I'll let George answer:<o:p></o:p></p><p>EPR refers to the <span class=font><b><span style='font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif'>Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox</span></b></span>, a 1935 thought experiment by Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen. It challenges the completeness of quantum mechanics by showing that, under its rules, two particles can become <span class=font><i><span style='font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif'>entangled</span></i></span>—so that measuring one instantly affects the other, no matter how far apart they are.<o:p></o:p></p><p>Einstein called this "spooky action at a distance" and believed it implied quantum mechanics was incomplete, suggesting the existence of hidden variables that would restore locality and determinism.<o:p></o:p></p><p>EPR is foundational to debates about quantum nonlocality and played a key role in later developments like Bell's theorem and quantum information theory.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 at 20:29, Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor'><div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>What is "EPR"? What is the attraction to acronyms about?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>---<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Frank C. Wimberly<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Santa Fe, NM 87505<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>505 670-9918<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Santa Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>On Sun, Jun 8, 2025, 11:38<span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span>PM Pieter Steenekamp <<a href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Seth Lloyd’s Turing test for free will (<a href="https://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/lloyd/Turing_Test.pdf">https://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/lloyd/Turing_Test.pdf</a>) is to consciousness what EPR was to quantum physics: a challenge to the theory's completeness. EPR said quantum weirdness must hide something deeper; Bell said “let's test that”—and nature replied, “nope, it’s weird all the way down.” Nobel Prize, case closed.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Lloyd asks: can we prove the mind is just machinery? His test says: build a machine that behaves indistinguishably from a human and believes it has free will. If you succeed—great. But failure proves nothing.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Unlike Bell’s inequality, this test can only confirm, never deny. No ghost-busting here.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Until then? It’s speculation. The Standard Model explains almost everything—except the quantum gremlins and how observation messes things up. So maybe the mind still has an ace up its sleeve. Or a soul. Or a bug in the code.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Attachments:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>smime.p7s<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>