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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>A human in a straightjacket, locked in a padded room, would have similar difficulties. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> on behalf of Prof David West <profwest@fastmail.fm><br><b>Date: </b>Monday, June 9, 2025 at 12:26 PM<br><b>To: </b>friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Free will—ghost in the machine or just clever wiring?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Chat GPT does not have free will, because unlike a human being, it cannot commit suicide.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>On Mon, Jun 9, 2025, at 2:11 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=qt><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>Could someone please take a definite position? Can ChatGPT have free will or not. If not, why not?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor'><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b></span><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jochen Fromm</span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><br><span class=size><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 9, 2025 12:01 PM</span><br><span class=size><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com></span><br><span class=size><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free will—ghost in the machine or just clever wiring?</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span style='color:black'>If you want to explain free will by entanglement then I would say free will is the opposite - a kind of un-entanglement or emergence.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'><span style='color:black'>A biological system which grows while learning a language is an entangled system where two systems are merged into one, both entangled in the same structures. It is based on different codes stored in the same substance.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'><span style='color:black'>Then you start to untangle them - for instance by self-consciousness - and get the biological animal on the one hand and the ghost in the machine on the other hand. A free will which is neither trapped by biological needs nor by advertising, brands and marketing would be the essence of a ghost in the machine, right? Although ghost buster Gilbert Ryle says such thing does not exist.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'><span style='color:black'>-J.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span style='color:black'>-------- Original message --------</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span style='color:black'>From: Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span style='color:black'>Date: 6/9/25 6:19 PM (GMT+01:00)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span style='color:black'>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span style='color:black'>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Free will—ghost in the machine or just clever wiring?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1 style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Here’s an idea that’s been helping me to procrastinate. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>1. Suppose that spacetime is an embedding of entanglement. An evolved quantum error correcting code (QEC) that enables a network to form geometries like the reality we see.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><br><span class=size>2. Suppose the Big Bang the result of a unifying supermassive black hole. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>3. Like other black holes, it had high entropy.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>4. That final black hole, lacking an exterior, launches a new universe. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>5. The new universe might appear to be smooth in its geometric expansion, but that would only because of the embedded QEC. It would be rich with unseen entanglement that was not subject to the QEC.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1 style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>6. In this view, universes could evolve or even be nested. Universes with no or crude QECs would be unstable and prone to collapse. Universes with strong QECs could have orderly environments where life could emerge, as Eric describes in his book.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>7. A Big Crunch would be like checkpointing a virtual machine. The evolved QECs could still be in the checkpoint and cause the next version of the universe to inherit its desirable properties. Maybe it would be like a junkyard with some interesting parts that would find novel uses in the next go.</span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><br><br><span class=size>8. Speculating further, very sophisticated civilizations (after billions of years) might discover how to stack the deck to invent new metaphysics at the next Big Bang. Simple beings, like humans – not being billions of years old -- might invent words for that like God.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>9. The whole thing could be deterministic and not facilitate any free will!</span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><br><br><span class=size>Now I should get back to work.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor'><p class=qt-msonormal1 style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='color:black'>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of Pieter Steenekamp <<a href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Sunday, June 8, 2025 at 10:38</span><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='color:black'>PM<br><b>To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>[FRIAM] Free will—ghost in the machine or just clever wiring?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=size><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Seth Lloyd’s Turing test for free will (<a href="https://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/lloyd/Turing_Test.pdf">https://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/lloyd/Turing_Test.pdf</a>) is to consciousness what EPR was to quantum physics: a challenge to the theory's completeness. EPR said quantum weirdness must hide something deeper; Bell said “let's test that”—and nature replied, “nope, it’s weird all the way down.” Nobel Prize, case closed.</span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><br><br><span class=size>Lloyd asks: can we prove the mind is just machinery? His test says: build a machine that behaves indistinguishably from a human and believes it has free will. If you succeed—great. But failure proves nothing.</span><br><br><span class=size>Unlike Bell’s inequality, this test can only confirm, never deny. No ghost-busting here.</span><br><br><span class=size>Until then? It’s speculation. The Standard Model explains almost everything—except the quantum gremlins and how observation messes things up. So maybe the mind still has an ace up its sleeve. Or a soul. Or a bug in the code.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Attachments:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>smime.p7s<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>