<div dir="ltr">Thanks, DaveW — I’ll definitely get hold of the book; it looks fascinating!<br><br>I’m genuinely excited about what future scientific discoveries might reveal in this area. I (weakly) doubt that our current AI frameworks will crack building a human comparable AI, but who knows? Perhaps new paradigms will emerge, and someone will build a Turing-machine-type mind that eventually surpasses the human mind — and maybe even helps us answer these deep questions. I'd love to see that happen, though I remain a bit skeptical. Maybe it will require a quantum computer, or something else entirely beyond what we can currently imagine.<br><br>I have a strong faith in science — but not always in scientists’ opinions. After all, one of the top physicists of the 19th century, Albert Michelson, famously declared just before the advent of quantum mechanics: “There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement.” History had other plans.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 20:55, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u><div><div style="font-family:Arial">There are a number of pretty interesting, quasi-paradoxes, surrounding non-self and concepts like will, choice, and action that, at minimum, imply a "selfy-thing."</div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">My very first course in Buddhist philosophy (fall 1968 at Macalester College with Professor David White) raised the question: "if there is no self, what reincarnates?" The answer was involved enough it would have been worthy of a graduate seminar all by itself. Same thing for the "complex web" you mention but not the "conditioned responses." Something more akin to patterns arising from localized strange attractors within the context of the Self (Atman).</div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">If you want to explore the concepts from your MOOC further, I highly recommend Alex Comfort's book, <i>Reality and Empathy. </i>[Yes, it is the same Alex Comfort who wrote <i>The Joy of Sex</i>.]</div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">davew</div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div>On Wed, Jun 11, 2025, at 10:57 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite" id="m_-5590131212051334783qt"><div dir="ltr"><div>Many moons ago, I worked through a fascinating MOOC by Robert Wright titled <i>Buddhism and Modern Psychology.</i> The course promo included the following:</div><div><br></div><div><i>One of the core principles of Buddhism is the concept of ‘non-self.’ This means that there is no permanent, unchanging self that exists independently of the constantly changing physical and mental processes that make up our experience. This idea can be challenging to grasp, but it is a fundamental aspect of the Buddhist worldview.</i></div><div><br></div><div>The course takes an agnostic stance on the spiritual aspects of Buddhism and instead focuses on how Buddhist practices align with insights from modern psychology. I found it all deeply intriguing.</div><div><br></div><div>Now, if I may share my "expert" opinion (imagine someone saying: "Pieter is such a humble person — he has so much to be humble about")… While Buddhism denies a permanent self, it still makes space for will and choice — not as free-floating expressions of some fixed essence, but as part of a complex web of conditioned processes.</div></div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr">On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 15:26, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><u></u><br></div><div><div style="font-family:Arial">A minor curiosity,</div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">If there is "free will" it is essential that there is a "willer;" that which wills freely. What is it?</div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Non-individuated consciousness/intelligence would not seem to be sufficient; only an "I" will do.</div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">But, to a [Vedist | Taoist | Buddhist | Alchemist | ...] there is not such thing as an "I," only the illusion of one. Similarly a material-monist (Marcus?) or a behavior-monist (Nick!) an "I" is nothing in itself, merely an epiphenomenon, neither a metaphysical nor ontological thing.</div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">It would seem that any argument, pro/con, for free will is dependent on a convincing argument for the existence of an "I" whether embodied in silicon or flesh.</div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">davew</div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div>On Tue, Jun 10, 2025, at 8:09 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite" id="m_-5590131212051334783qt-m_-5053203513502252724qt"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>I have two hats. When I wear Hat #1, I don't think humans have free will..</div><div><br></div><div>In this view, our minds are what happen when lots of physical, deterministic processes take place—not just in the brain, but possibly in all the cells of the body. There might be a bit of quantum randomness involved, but nothing too wild—we can probably understand and model it pretty well. So, from this perspective, free will doesn’t really exist. We’re following the rules of physics, whether we like it or not.</div><div><br></div><div>I don’t think current AI systems are yet capable of reproducing something like the human mind, but in theory, I believe it’s possible. Maybe it’ll happen soon. Maybe it’ll take much longer. But the idea itself is not far-fetched. And even if we don’t get full human-like AI anytime soon, the progress I expect from today’s "narrow" AI will still be enormous. Within a decade or two, I think we’ll see major advances and a kind of radical abundance in goods and services.</div><div><br></div><div>Then I switch to Hat #2.</div><div><br></div><div>This hat still believes in science, but it questions whether today’s scientific model of reality is enough to fully explain the human mind.</div><div><br></div><div>I asked Grok about Roger Penrose’s view on free will. The response was:</div><div><br></div><div>“Roger Penrose, a renowned physicist and philosopher, believes free will is a real phenomenon, rooted in the complex interplay of quantum mechanics and consciousness. His ideas challenge traditional views, suggesting our choices may stem from non-computable processes in the brain, beyond simple cause-and-effect. While controversial, his work offers a fascinating perspective on how we make decisions.”</div><div><br></div><div>(Full version here: <a href="https://x.com/i/grok/share/aqBDuYD1GxnPOaUSu02UcP4uB" target="_blank">https://x.com/i/grok/share/aqBDuYD1GxnPOaUSu02UcP4uB</a>)</div><div><br></div><div>To me, this isn’t mysticism—it’s serious, thoughtful science. And if we want to test these ideas, Seth Lloyd’s “Turing test for free will” is another example of proper science being used to explore difficult questions.</div></div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr">On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 01:19, steve smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><u></u><br></div><div><p><br></p><div>On 6/10/25 3:26 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite"><div><p>This conversation is well into bad faith
now. I’m done.</p></div></blockquote><p>Let me dig into my reserves of "good faith" for those who might
not have already exercised their free will by choosing to exit the
conversation (ok... THAT was bad faith also! )</p><p>FWIW, the *only* thing I have to offer in opposition to the
monistic/deterministic/no-free-will view is my own "experience"
which is *at best* proof (to me) by example... it is not hard for
me to grant that other "beings like me" have the same experience
of "free will" (and other <i>qualia</i>). </p><p>My mystical/abstraction-oriented/woo self tends to *grow* the
scope of "beings like me" and even without the benefit of various
organic alkaloids (et al) that others here might use to get into
that mood? I'm pretty open to granting AI/ML models something
*like* (my) consciousness, and by *extension* something *like*
(my) free will... while *simultaneously* (read Lewis Carrol's
Red Queen character) believing that determinism IS.</p><p>My snarky flipness was maybe a reflection of the inner tension I
feel in this discussion... that I can take either or both sides
pretty effectively and don't find the arguments of one extrema
very compelling to my other extrema (and vice-versa). The
epitome of ambi-valence?</p><p>Maybe there is useful meta-argument which helps resolve that?
Maybe everyone else is able to get a good grip on one extrema or
the other and recognize the opposite one acutely absurd?</p><p><br></p><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p><b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:11pt"> Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>steve smith<br> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 10, 2025 2:24 PM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Free will—ghost in the
machine or just clever wiring?<u></u><u></u></span></span></p></div></div><p><u></u> <u></u></p><p><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p>On 6/10/25 9:44 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><p>Consider a robot with sensors roughly
comparable to humans.<u></u><u></u></p><p>The robot has access to all the energy it
wants. It has a large memory and generous computing
resources. It has executive processes with onboard
state-of-the-art LLMs to access vast information and can run
a wide variety of appropriate programs to plan its next
actions. It can use the LLMs to write new programs. It can
tune or fine-tune the LLMs constantly from new data. It
remembers its actions and their consequences. It has video
and audio recordings of every moment. It has time series
data of its sensors since it was activated. Because of its
general self-tuning ability, any guidance from its authors
(like for the LLM) can be overridden. It has
americium-241 onboard hardware random number generator that
drives its LLM sampling and any other stochastic algorithm.<u></u><u></u></p><p> <u></u><u></u></p><p>Does this robot have free will? Why or
why not?<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><p>Probably not unless it's brain is <i>positronic</i>. <u></u><u></u></p><p>For a <i>proof by anecdote</i>, read the corpus of Asimov's
work. ;/<u></u><u></u></p><p>Then go release an Orca into the wild and holler "Free Willy"
at the top of your lungs. If you survive being arrested and
convicted for your declaration of putative "public exposure",
then note that the entire global population are taking up the
practice of head-butting sailboats.... free will much? <u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><p>The perils of Free Will(y)?<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><p><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><br></div><pre>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
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