<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Nick,</div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I have never heard you state your behaviorism in quite this way:<i> "I think that behaviorism is a way carving the world into objects and environments (ahem) and that rocks behave. Then the distinction beween rocks and organisms would emerge as a distinction between objeccts that manage their environments and objects that dont." </i></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">It has some seeming parallels to definitions/descriptions I frequently borrow from Ludwig von Bertalannfy.</div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i><b>A system (any/every) is a set of elements and the relations among them.</b></i></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i><b><br></b></i></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><b><i>An element is differentiated and defined based on its behavior—its "contribution" to the system.</i></b></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I use 'Object' as a synonym for 'Element', and establish a single way to describe objects, be they abstract (an account), an inanimate (copier machine), human (in a role), or a software/hardware Artifact. The apparent dualism (element — relation) in the definition is, in software, is eliminated by embodying 'relations' in behavioral objects. </div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Two big differences: I do not distinguish between objects and "environments" and no object is allowed to "manage," "control," "manipulate," or "violate the encapsulation" of any other object.</div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">There must be some essential differences in our concepts of "Behavior," else we have been talking past each other all these many years.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew</div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Mon, Jun 16, 2025, at 10:05 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><div dir="ltr"><div>Eric, </div><div><br></div><div>It's a dead pigeon that we throw out the window. I wouldnt waste a perfectly good dead duck on such an experiment. </div><div><br></div><div>I cant decide if the dead pigeon is the limit of behavior or if is behavior. I think it is behavior. I think that behaviorism is a way carving the world into objects and environments (ahem) and that rocks behave. Then the distinction beween rocks and organisms would emerge as a distinction between objeccts that manage their environments and objects that dont. </div><div><br></div><div>n</div></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote qt-gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 7:07 PM Eric Charles <<a href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><div dir="ltr"><div>Jon,</div><div>This is a great expansion of the issue, and it might take me a bit to build up to an adequate response. </div><div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>You are definitely right that "scale" is one of many dimensions we might look at when evaluating whether or not something is a behavior. The evaluation of whether or not something is behaving involves comparisons, and those comparisons have to be "fair" in some sense that suggests a "domain". For example, if we drop a dead duck out a window, and then agree that falling in that fashion does not evidence behavior, we wouldn't want to then move to a coin-drop in water (where the coin spins and slides erratically, moving down at various speeds) and assert the coin was alive because it's movement didn't look like the dead-duck's movement. </div><div><br></div><div>Does that get us anywhere? </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>-----------</div><div dir="ltr"><div>Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.</div><div>Department of Justice - Personnel <span>Psychologist</span></div></div><div>American University - Adjunct Instructor</div><div><br></div></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="mailto:echarles@american.edu" target="_blank"></a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><br></div></div></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:58 PM Jon Zingale <<a href="mailto:jonzingale@gmail.com" target="_blank">jonzingale@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><div dir="ltr"><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Glen, Eric,</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);"><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">I am enjoying how the conversation is developing. The celery</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">example strikes me as being important, but where Glen refers</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">to <i>scale</i> I would speak of <i>domain of definition</i>. That a shift in</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">domain happens to be size, rather than some other contextual</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">specification, may not be what we want. If this isn't the case</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Glen, please let me know. With respect to Eric's points it seems</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">fair to me to say that a paddle wheel is behaving, but perhaps not</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">in the <i>larger</i> context of the river. The celery is behaving, but not</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">not in the <i>smaller</i> context of capillary action. Here I am using</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">the language of <i>large</i> and <i>small</i>, but perhaps other modalities</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">have a place as well. One can say Nick's behavior appears</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">spontaneously, but in fact was necessitated by something <i>prior</i>.</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Here an <i>earlier</i> Nick could play the role of the river.</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);"><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Frank,</div><div class="qt-gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Would you say that the mind is as public as RSA encryption?</div></div><div>.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...</div><div> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</div><div> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></div><div> unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></div><div> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a></div><div> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></div></blockquote></div><div>.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...</div><div> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</div><div> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></div><div> unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></div><div> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a></div><div> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><span class="qt-gmail_signature_prefix">--</span></div><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Nicholas S. Thompson</div><div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology</div><div>Clark University</div><div><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a></div><div><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a></div></div></div><div>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..</div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</div><div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></div><div>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></div><div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></div><div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>