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<p>DaveW -</p>
<p>Well said (IMO)... I'm a pretty well practiced (but lame)
meditator myself, which might be why "go to hell" gets through my
satorial facade. If I am approaching enlightenment, it is
asymptotically and more aptly perhaps "Satori and I are
approaching one another" to use David Bohm's "rheomode" idiom?
When we meet out there on the horizon of max-entropy others will
probably call it (brain? soul?) death. This is the only thing
on MY bucket list. Or more aptly it is the bucket which I seek to
kick and be kicked by?<br>
</p>
<p>I believe (with confidence but little conviction) that there is
something important in the holonomic "stack" of evolution in this
"flaw" you point out. </p>
<p> It is the ability to be self-contained, focused, un-manipulable
which makes us what we are, makes us capable as independent
strongly self-actualized agents. But it is contrarily, our
ability to be manipulated, or entrainability, etc. which then
makes us capable of participating in higher order self-organized
complex adaptive systems... it is what makes us tribal, social,
cultural, civilizational, eusocial. For the narrow optimization
of an individual agent's "goals" it is a bug, not a feature, but
for the collective emergent system it is a feature not a bug. <br>
</p>
<p>Naturally the experiments of Soviet and then echoing, Chinese
Communism/Socialism and the many satellite eddies that spun off
from them turned out to have some acute limits which lead them to
ultimately precess their way to a phase-change boundary, a
bifurcation point, a saddle point. </p>
<p>We, the democratic free-market sub-species (Post monarchal W
Europe, Post-Empire British Commnwealth, the American States) have
also precessed away from the ideals we formed around and cling to
today (Make 'Murrica Great Some More Forever Goddamit, even if we
have to kill everyone else and it kills us too!) and onto the cusp
(IMO) of a saddle in the iterated map that is
sociopoliticaleconomicreligiotechno humanity. <br>
</p>
<p>Modern self-reinforcing technology (has come in spurts from
neolithics to ML running on global, distributed, connected,
ubiquitous "computronium".</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>Computronium being the stuff Data Centers are condensing
into that currently looks like buildings of rooms of racks of
trays of slots filled with boards of chips of LSIs of
transistors of molecules sucking in electrical power and
pouring out heat-entropy for the purpose of "organizing and
re-organizing the hell out of the corpus of extant (digitized)
human knowledge, and making cryptoGarchs richer". </i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Who/what do we "become" next? I think *we* are already a
collective superorganism (glen has voted for "no more than a slime
mold") and it is that collective super-organism's evolution that
is in play and it is our subvenience which facilitates that but no
longer drives it? As a "single cell" in the emergent
super-organism in question, I feel blessed to be here to "observe"
(and minimally co-evolve) with it in our mutual
sub/super-venience?</p>
<p>I should probably rewrite this as a poem. It is definitely a
Yarn both in the sense of EricS' recent invokation and in that of
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyson_Yunkaporta">Tyson
Yunkaporta</a> methinks?<br>
</p>
<p>- SteveS<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/18/25 6:46 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:975cd493-2011-4c53-b3b8-9817aa3046eb@app.fastmail.com">
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">Nick,</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">A partial reclamation is possible.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">In software I deal with a
closed-deterministic system and I define a specific protocol for
an object: the set of messages to which it can and is willing to
respond, along with the defined response. In the world of
software I forbid one object managing/controlling another
despite the fact that the default assumption behind every
program is some kind of hierarchical control (even in parallel
programming). I can provide all kinds of arguments as to why
this is bad and non-control is good, in programming, but you are
not really interested in that realm.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">As to a person. We have a wide
ranging 'protocol' of messages we will, often without
consideration or consent, respond to. Most of those we picked up
non-consciously from parents and culture. This wide range
protocol does make humans subject to manipulation. </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">It is possible to expand the
protocol and thereby increase the potential for manipulation and
control. The "you're going to Hell if you don't stop X" message
would be an example. We do this with domesticated animals such
that a dog, for example, will respond to 'beg', 'shake', and
'roll over'. (If Pavlov rang his bell in front of a wolf, the
"here's lunch" message would likely manipulate the wolf to more
than salivation.)</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">But it also possible to self-alter
your protocol. I simply will not respond to the "go to hell"
message, for example.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">If we substitute "messages" for
"cues" we are pretty much in agreement.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">We can even get to Zen together:<i>
"cues to an environment that isn't" </i>is just Maya, the
world of illusion. A little meditation and you too can become
"immune" to all those cues/messages and achieve Satori
(enlightenment).</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Tue, Jun 17, 2025, at 11:32 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="">
<div class="qt-elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);">Dave,
Thanks for responding. I hoped that my ".... objects and
environments [ahem]..." might catch your attention. This post
was my attempt to respond to the intense pressure I feel from
EricS and Glen to be more forthright and self-conscious about
my metaphysics — by which I mean the things I think before I
start thinking.. </div>
<div class="qt-elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-left:0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-width:3px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(200, 200, 200);">
<div class="qt-elementToProof" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="font" style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt;"><b><i>Two big differences: I do
not distinguish between objects and "environments"
and no object is allowed to "manage," "control,"
"manipulate," or "violate the encapsulation" of any
other object</i></b></span></span><span class="font"
style="font-family:Arial;"><span class="size"
style="font-size:12pt;">.</span></span><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt;"> </span></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div class="qt-elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);">Every
time I have heard you talk about "object-oriented programming"
I have felt that there has probably been some illicit traffic
between behaviorism and programming languages that would
reward examination. But first I want to try and rescue
"management" from the zone of things about which we disagree
and put it firmly in the zone of things about which we agree.
When I manage you, I don't violate your encapsulation. I
don't change the set of if I then O rules that constitute your
"insides". On the contrary, I provide you with inputs that,
given your design, will produce outputs designed by MY needs,
rather than yours. This is the sense in which much management
proceeds by deception. We all respond to our environment on
the basis of cues. If I can provide you with the cues to an
environment that isn't, then I can get you to respond in ways
you wouldn't otherwise. That principle is deeply embedded in
ethology and also in control system theory. Before we carry
this discussion further, I wonder if we do in fact agree on
that.</div>
<div class="qt-elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<div class="qt-elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);">Thanks
for your charity and close reading.</div>
<div class="qt-elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<div class="qt-elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);">Nick </div>
<div class="qt-elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<div id="qt-appendonsend"><br>
</div>
<div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%;"><br>
</div>
<div id="qt-divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr">
<div><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="color" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b>
Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> on behalf of
Prof David West <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"><profwest@fastmail.fm></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 17, 2025 9:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Movement vs. Behavior, and
what's in the Black Box</span></span></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Nick,</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I have never heard you state
your behaviorism in quite this way:<i> "I think that
behaviorism is a way carving the world into objects and
environments (ahem) and that rocks behave. Then the
distinction beween rocks and organisms would emerge as a
distinction between objeccts that manage their
environments and objects that dont." </i></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">It has some seeming parallels
to definitions/descriptions I frequently borrow from Ludwig
von Bertalannfy.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><i><b>A system (any/every) is
a set of elements and the relations among them.</b></i></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><b><i>An element is
differentiated and defined based on its behavior—its
"contribution" to the system.</i></b></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I use 'Object' as a synonym
for 'Element', and establish a single way to describe
objects, be they abstract (an account), an inanimate (copier
machine), human (in a role), or a software/hardware
Artifact. The apparent dualism (element — relation) in the
definition is, in software, is eliminated by embodying
'relations' in behavioral objects. </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Two big differences: I do not
distinguish between objects and "environments" and no object
is allowed to "manage," "control," "manipulate," or "violate
the encapsulation" of any other object.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">There must be some essential
differences in our concepts of "Behavior," else we have been
talking past each other all these many years.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Mon, Jun 16, 2025, at 10:05 AM, Nicholas Thompson
wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt-x_qt" style="">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Eric, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's a dead pigeon that we throw out the window. I
wouldnt waste a perfectly good dead duck on such an
experiment. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I cant decide if the dead pigeon is the limit of
behavior or if is behavior. I think it is behavior. I
think that behaviorism is a way carving the world into
objects and environments (ahem) and that rocks behave.
Then the distinction beween rocks and organisms would
emerge as a distinction between objeccts that manage
their environments and objects that dont. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>n</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="qt-x_qt-gmail_quote qt-x_qt-gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="qt-x_qt-gmail_attr">On Tue, May 12,
2020 at 7:07 PM Eric Charles <<a
href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="qt-x_qt-gmail_quote"
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Jon,</div>
<div>This is a great expansion of the issue, and it
might take me a bit to build up to an adequate
response. </div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="qt-x_qt-gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>You are definitely right that "scale"
is one of many dimensions we might look
at when evaluating whether or not
something is a behavior. The evaluation
of whether or not something is behaving
involves comparisons, and those
comparisons have to be "fair" in some
sense that suggests a "domain". For
example, if we drop a dead duck out a
window, and then agree that falling in
that fashion does not evidence behavior,
we wouldn't want to then move to a
coin-drop in water (where the coin spins
and slides erratically, moving down at
various speeds) and assert the coin was
alive because it's movement didn't look
like the dead-duck's movement. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Does that get us anywhere? </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----------</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.</div>
<div>Department of Justice -
Personnel <span>Psychologist</span></div>
</div>
<div>American University - Adjunct
Instructor</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="qt-x_qt-gmail_attr">On Tue, May
12, 2020 at 12:58 PM Jon Zingale <<a
href="mailto:jonzingale@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jonzingale@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="qt-x_qt-gmail_quote"
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Glen,
Eric,</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);"><br>
</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">I
am enjoying how the conversation is developing.
The celery</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">example
strikes me as being important, but where Glen
refers</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">to
<i>scale</i> I would speak of <i>domain of
definition</i>. That a shift in</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">domain
happens to be size, rather than some other
contextual</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">specification,
may not be what we want. If this isn't the case</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Glen,
please let me know. With respect to Eric's
points it seems</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">fair
to me to say that a paddle wheel is behaving,
but perhaps not</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">in
the <i>larger</i> context of the river. The
celery is behaving, but not</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">not
in the <i>smaller</i> context of capillary
action. Here I am using</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">the
language of <i>large</i> and <i>small</i>, but
perhaps other modalities</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">have
a place as well. One can say Nick's behavior
appears</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">spontaneously,
but in fact was necessitated by something <i>prior</i>.</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Here
an <i>earlier</i> Nick could play the role of
the river.</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);"><br>
</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Frank,</div>
<div class="qt-x_qt-gmail_default"
style="font-family:garamond, serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Would
you say that the mind is as public as RSA
encryption?</div>
</div>
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<div><span class="qt-x_qt-gmail_signature_prefix">--</span></div>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Nicholas S. Thompson</div>
<div>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology</div>
<div>Clark University</div>
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moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></div>
<div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
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moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></div>
<div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></div>
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<div>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .--
.-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..-
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<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</div>
<div>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a></div>
<div>to (un)subscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></div>
<div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></div>
<div>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a
href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a></div>
<div> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a
href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a></div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a>
to (un)subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a>
</pre>
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