<div dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>Do you people use acronyms to appear more esoteric? Stop it!</div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 27, 2025, 10:06 AM steve smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p>FWIW I composed one of my arbitrarily long (and convoluted)
observations (maybe just mansplaining) about the multiple uses of
the term <i>Reality</i> and how I apprehend them and how I
(think) they relate to the business of "chatting with LLMs" and
the implications for the discussion at-hand. Maybe there will
(co)arise a white paper elsewhere.<br>
</p>
<p>However, to (try to) be concise I trimmed it a bit. I think I
hear us talking (effing) all the way around the question of
whether there is an ineffable and is it just "mysticism" by
another name? <br>
</p>
<p>I hear DaveW holding Qualia as the only truly grounded Reality
and EricS alluding to the way the Intersubjective dribbles over
into Placeholder (a handwaving name for something we all think we
know, but can't seem to pin down or agree on). Most of us trained
and operating in Sci/Eng/Tech *want* there to be a simple
Objective which the formalisms of math/science help us converge
upon but defer to Operational/Pragmatic most of the time?</p>
<p>My suspicion of mystical rhetoric is that it is a most <i>obscurational</i>
form of Placeholder Reality... while also being *aspriational*
("but what IF there IS an objective reality which *only I* can
access through unspecified occult means?"). That said, I DO agree
with DaveWs suggestion that there are things which can be
perceived, even apprehended which cannot be expressed ("effed").
thus they are "ineffable". The arts of the Arcane and Occult
attempt to "eff" them, though gesturally, pointing vaguely toward
an interstice? Alexander's QWAN, etc.<br>
</p>
<p>My working definitions of "Reality" to be found at the bottom of
the post.<br>
</p>
<p>I acknowledge Qualia as fundamental to *my* existence.. but
recognize the Pragmatic as a common mode of my expression and
even apprehension, all the while aspiring to Objective but
deferring heavily to Intersubjective to interpret all of the
others. EAC is most interesting to me whether it is the
autopoesis of M&V or the vedic/buddhist dependent co-arising,
or wheeler/beyond quantum realities. But maybe because it is
more exotic?</p>
<div>EricS wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jun 27, 2025, at 7:31, Marcus Daniels
<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><marcus@snoutfarm.com></a> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dave writes:<br>
<br>
<<span> </span></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">My 'mysticism',
like my hallucinogenic experience, is nothing more
than a source of what I consider to be "real" data and
a supply of fascinating questions—never answers.</span><span style="font-size:11pt"><span> </span>><br>
<br>
Not clear why something that supposedly cannot be
captured by mere language keeps getting pitched as a
real and intersubjective thing via language.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am much less bothered by this _in principle_, since I
generally hold the two premises:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. Language is a collection of signals _within_ a system,
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
...<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. The term “reality” is a problem in general. <br>
</div>
<div>I do like the idea that this is just a version of the
normal confusion, for things not understood very well (like,
quite badly), and that one could find ways to do better.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Without belaboring (but including for completeness) I offer my
working definitions of various uses of the term <i><b>Reality</b></i>:</p>
<p>1) Operational Pragmatic Reality: <i><br>
</i></p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>That which <span>affords
coherent behavior</span>—the reliable background against
which action can occur. As from ecological psychology (</i>Gibson<i>’s
affordances), predictive processing (</i>Friston<i>), and some
aspects of (our beloved) </i>Peircean<i> pragmatism?</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>2) Intersubjective Reality:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>That which is constructed, maintained, and enacted through
language and shared narratives. As from </i>Luckman, Lacan,
Foucault<i>?</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>3) Formal (Scientific) Reality:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>That which can be modeled with precision, prediction, and
repeatability. As from Mathematics, physics, systems theory?</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>4) Experiential Reality: <i><br>
</i></p>
<blockquote>
<p>The immediately given, lived experience—the “suchness” before
concept.<strong> </strong><i>As
from </i>Husserl, Merleau-Ponty, Varela? Whence <i>Qualia</i>.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>5) Placeholder Reality:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>The term “reality” as a placeholder or dummy variable—used
rhetorically to defer deeper ontological commitments. As from
</i>all of us<i> all the time?</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>6) Participatory Reality:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>Reality as not wholly determinate </i>until <span>observed or enacted</span><i>—that
is, it co-arises with participation.</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>7) Linguistic Manifold Reality:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>LLMs inhabit and approximate intersubjective reality. Each
language model represents a “manifold” within a semantic
plenum. “Reality” is the high-dimensional attractor surface
that forms when enough participants (biological or artificial)
<span>converge</span> on
something shareable, predictive, and compressible.</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Enactivism / Autopoiesis /
Dependent Co-Arising (EAC) is not a single category in this
typology—it is a <strong>meta-theory
of reality-generation</strong>, operating across:</p>
<ul>
<li>
<p><strong>Operational</strong> → it explains the <em>conditions for affordances</em></p>
</li>
<li>
<p><strong>Intersubjective</strong> → it explains <em>how we co-construct the
shared</em></p>
</li>
<li>
<p><strong>Experiential</strong> → it explains <em>how we inhabit the lived</em></p>
</li>
<li>
<p><strong>Participatory</strong> → it explains <em>why observation creates
reality</em></p>
</li>
</ul>
<p>And it gently critiques:</p>
<ul>
<li>
<p><strong>Formal</strong> → by showing its limits</p>
</li>
<li>
<p><strong>Placeholder</strong> → by showing its
necessity</p>
</li>
<li>
<p><strong>LLM-based</strong> → by asking what is
missing for full participation</p>
</li>
</ul>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
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