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<p>By third grade I was mumbling/humming through the "one-nation
under God" portion of the daily prayer (aka "Pledge of
Allegiance") and by High School I was standing attentively and
politely but without hand over heart and without even humming the
tune. School administration definitely side-eyed me but never
said a word out loud.<br>
</p>
<p><long ramble about my own religious/not education></p>
<blockquote>
<p>The first elision came because I had seen the half-dozen
Churches in my town/region and *heard of* the range of Judiasm,
Islam and perhaps Taoism/Confucianism/Buddhism and dozens of
variants and knew from the rhetoric involved that they all (the
Ibrahamics) knew with absolute surety that they prayed to the
*one true God* and pretty much everybody else was going to hell
for not doing so. My mother took us to a Bible School in the
summer to get a break from us (and help us develop minimal
social skills playing dodge-ball and red rover?) and was totally
fascinated by the biblical stories of miracles. The teacher got
quite mad at me when I kept asking for more details because I
thought that fish/loaves, red-sea-parting,
resurrecting-from-dead stuff was really cool. I think she took
it all literally but didn't know what to do with a guy like me
when *I* took it literally. My parents explained allegory and
metaphor to me after that.<br>
</p>
<p>Maybe there would be a rope line at the Pearly Gates with St.
Peter as the bouncer... letting those who could reframe *their
God* in terms of *the one True God* well enough get let
through... Maybe among the 99 names of Allah, one of them
suited the Xtian version of Yahweh enough to let you in? Maybe
if you invoked Moroni's name St Peter would let you cut the
line? If there *was* a God (esp. old white man in grey beard)
I really doubted he would be so restrictive, but that was hard
to tell listening to the "true believers" I wasn't having it,
and besides when I *did* try praying all I could hear was the
sound of my own pulse, no matter how quiet I was. The ants,
trees and lizards and even clouds spoke louder and clearer to me
for sure, and they never discussed heaven or hell or salvation
or even right and wrong.<br>
</p>
<p>By high school (1971) the Vietnam War conscription and the
civil unrest over Equal Rights and Civil Rights had alerted me
to just how bogus any Nation (mine in particular) could be. To
*pledge allegiance* to this felt very hypocritical. I already
knew I wasn't going to volunteer to be taught how to kill and
put in a position of "kill or be killed". I was planning my
(permanent) exit from the good ole USA as early as 14 if the
alternative was to play "kill or be killed".<br>
</p>
<p> I was still "proud to be a 'murrican" and still liked the tune
of the Star Spangled Banner and the sight of "Old Glory"
flapping in the wind (full or half-mast, preferably right-side
up, but sometimes on the back of a motorcycle jacket or helmet
as well). </p>
<p>I wanted to believe "we" were the greatest nation on the planet
even if/though "we" were clearly flawed as a nation and probably
as a *people*. If anything, the constant indoctrination of
said "Pledge of Allegiance" helped keep me aware that there was
some serious <i>God and Country</i> propaganda afoot in our
public sphere, even if it was limited (mostly) to that one
ritual.<br>
</p>
<p>When it was time to shove my daughters into public school I
seriously considered what the alternatives might be. </p>
<p>Their mother was Catholic and we had married in the church and
I dutifuly attended Mass weekly *with* them, and dutifully
delivered them to Catechism class weekly and dutifully did not
undermine their indoctrination. Fortunately the Priests we had
were awesome and their homilies were, for all the Biblical
references quite secularly meaningful. The times (mid 80s) were
ripe for lots of home schooling and there were more than a few
private (some religious, but other Montessori and maybe Steiner?
were available as well) in Los Alamos</p>
<p></ramble1></p>
</blockquote>
<p><ramble more specifically about schooling and religion><br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I think "charter" schools were already a funding model and I
approved of them. It was a lot harder for me to see the wisdom
of public funding the Gilead-style (nod to Margaret Atwood)
homeschooling and religious schools I saw around me. I was not
turning my children over to any "Aunt Lydias".</p>
<p>I could agree with Marcus' implication that childless folks
shouldn't have to pay taxes subsidizing the fecundity of the
breeders, but *I* actually want future generations to be as
fully and properly educated as possible. There are lots of
things in our civilization/culture/society I am willing (eager)
to fund "for the greater good", even though that is a very
subjective phrase. I'd cut out funding our military industrial
complex long before I'd worry about paying other people's
medical bills or their children's education.<br>
</p>
<p>Even though I see some horrific consequences (see every
home/christian-schooled bible-thumping member of congress and
the administration today) of progressive values allowing
regressive values to flourish, it feels like a necessary evil. </p>
<p>My daughters both found their way out of the propaganda machine
that was their Catechism classes, partly BECAUSE the Priest's
Homilies were so good. They both recognized that the religious
idiom was *just an idiom*, not a mainline to absolute truth (see
my recent rant about Reality). I presented to them up to the
time when they were offered Confirmation (and both declined in
spite of a disappointed mother and an angry grandmother) as a
Curious Agnostic despite being pretty deeply skeptical (if not
cynical) about the whole range of Ibrahamic (and beyond)
religions. I can't claim anything *but* A-Theistic, but avoid
falling into Anti-Theism (e.g. Dawkins). </p>
<p>My daughters may have been pushed to Anti-Theism by that early
indoctrination... Their mother's (and more acutely/notably
grandmother's) hypocritical version of Catholicism did them more
harm than the Church itself ever could. I only wish I'd been
more astute and able to provide them some meta-narrative that
*framed* their Catholic indoctrination better rather than
endorsing or undermining it. They fled and never looked back.
They lost something in that, though I'm unclear on precisely
what.<br>
</p>
<p>I've a friend who taught an advanced form of introductory
physics for a decade in Cour d'Alene ID to kids who were often
religious homeschooled or at least packed full of Creationism.
I think he did it well and helped guide many of them through
their night terrors about "going to hell" because they were
learning something which didn't align perfectly with Church
Doctrine. His biggest regret was discovering that his "best
students" inevitably went on to work in the Military Industrial
machine or similar. They were raised on one form of hubris and
too often his efforts only helped them translate it from the
JudeoChristian version to a TechnoLibertarian version... somehow
while still holding Creationist and Paternalistic beliefs.</p>
<p></ramble2><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/27/25 3:46 AM, Pieter Steenekamp
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPerSOKxOMnUBDBErJVX-bV89An6FQSEna3KDQ30P9wxi4hGsA@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">I totally agree — it would be great if all students
learned about the major world religions. I don’t have the inside
scoop, but I’d be a bit surprised if Texas public schools don’t
already include that.<br>
<br>
That said, teaching about religion is one thing. Starting the
day with “Let us pray”? That’s a different ballgame — and, in my
view, a firm no-go for any public school.<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 27 Jun 2025 at 08:21,
Russell Standish <<a href="mailto:lists@hpcoders.com.au"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lists@hpcoders.com.au</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On
Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 07:31:53AM +0200, Pieter Steenekamp
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Now, here’s where it gets interesting. If we’re all
chipping in tax money for<br>
> public education, then yes — I’m 100% on board with
keeping religion out of<br>
> public schools. That’s not only a fair deal, I would be
horrified if any<br>
> religion were included.<br>
> <br>
<br>
I have a dissenting opinion on this. I believe all students
should<br>
learn about all the major religions, including having a
passing<br>
knowledge of the contents of the Bible, the Koran, and a
notion of the<br>
special traditions etc of each one - eg the importance of
confession<br>
to Catholics, the importance of Shabat to Jews and Muslims,
etc. In<br>
todays world, you come across all these sorts of people, and
having an<br>
understanding of where they come from helps a lot.<br>
<br>
After all, the Bible is probably the most important work of
fiction in<br>
the English language, followed closely by the complete works
of<br>
Shakespeare. <br>
<br>
When my son went to school here in Australia, there was a
smorgasbord<br>
of about 3-4 varieties of Christianity and Judaism (no Islam,
from<br>
what I recall), and Non-religion, where you just got to read
books in<br>
the library. We sent him to the latter of course, but if
there'd been<br>
a proper comparitive religion course, that would have been my
choice.<br>
<br>
> But if my neighbour is still paying her taxes like the
rest of us, and on top<br>
> of that has to fork out again to send her kids to a
private Christian school —<br>
> that's also just not right. A voucher system, to me,
seems like a fair<br>
> compromise. It respects both freedom of choice and
fairness of contribution.<br>
> Maybe it’s not a perfect solution, but it does stop us
from double-charging<br>
> parents for believing something different.<br>
> <br>
> For me, diversity of opinions and freedom to choose your
religion is a very<br>
> good and positive thing.<br>
> <br>
></blockquote>
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