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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/27/25 12:11 PM, Frank Wimberly
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAA5dAfqHFB_h7-ybvGL5neK55xoN3eJViVH5M77x1U=EJq6Ekg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div>Do you people use acronyms to appear more esoteric? Stop
it!</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Legend:<br>
<blockquote>
<p>FWIW == For What it is Worth</p>
<p>QWAN == Christopher Alexander's Quality Without a Name</p>
<p>EAC == Enactivism / Autopoiesis / Dependent Co-Arising (in
bottom-posted definitions)</p>
<p>LLM == Large Language Model</p>
<p>M&V == Maturana & Varela (in reference to their
Autopoesis)</p>
<p>DaveW == David West</p>
<p>EricS == David Eric Smith</p>
</blockquote>
<p>hope I got them all<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAA5dAfqHFB_h7-ybvGL5neK55xoN3eJViVH5M77x1U=EJq6Ekg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 27, 2025, 10:06 AM
steve smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>FWIW I composed one of my arbitrarily long (and
convoluted) observations (maybe just mansplaining) about
the multiple uses of the term <i>Reality</i> and how I
apprehend them and how I (think) they relate to the
business of "chatting with LLMs" and the implications for
the discussion at-hand. Maybe there will (co)arise a
white paper elsewhere.<br>
</p>
<p>However, to (try to) be concise I trimmed it a bit. I
think I hear us talking (effing) all the way around the
question of whether there is an ineffable and is it just
"mysticism" by another name? <br>
</p>
<p>I hear DaveW holding Qualia as the only truly grounded
Reality and EricS alluding to the way the Intersubjective
dribbles over into Placeholder (a handwaving name for
something we all think we know, but can't seem to pin down
or agree on). Most of us trained and operating in
Sci/Eng/Tech *want* there to be a simple Objective which
the formalisms of math/science help us converge upon but
defer to Operational/Pragmatic most of the time?</p>
<p>My suspicion of mystical rhetoric is that it is a most <i>obscurational</i>
form of Placeholder Reality... while also being
*aspriational* ("but what IF there IS an objective reality
which *only I* can access through unspecified occult
means?"). That said, I DO agree with DaveWs suggestion
that there are things which can be perceived, even
apprehended which cannot be expressed ("effed"). thus
they are "ineffable". The arts of the Arcane and Occult
attempt to "eff" them, though gesturally, pointing vaguely
toward an interstice? Alexander's QWAN, etc.<br>
</p>
<p>My working definitions of "Reality" to be found at the
bottom of the post.<br>
</p>
<p>I acknowledge Qualia as fundamental to *my* existence..
but recognize the Pragmatic as a common mode of my
expression and even apprehension, all the while aspiring
to Objective but deferring heavily to Intersubjective to
interpret all of the others. EAC is most interesting
to me whether it is the autopoesis of M&V or the
vedic/buddhist dependent co-arising, or wheeler/beyond
quantum realities. But maybe because it is more exotic?</p>
<div>EricS wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> <br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jun 27, 2025, at 7:31, Marcus Daniels <a
href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"><marcus@snoutfarm.com></a>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div
style="margin:0in;font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:11pt">Dave writes:<br>
<br>
<<span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">My 'mysticism', like
my hallucinogenic experience, is nothing more
than a source of what I consider to be "real"
data and a supply of fascinating
questions—never answers.</span><span
style="font-size:11pt"><span> </span>><br>
<br>
Not clear why something that supposedly cannot
be captured by mere language keeps getting
pitched as a real and intersubjective thing
via language.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am much less bothered by this _in principle_,
since I generally hold the two premises:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. Language is a collection of signals _within_ a
system, <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
...<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. The term “reality” is a problem in general. <br>
</div>
<div>I do like the idea that this is just a version of
the normal confusion, for things not understood very
well (like, quite badly), and that one could find
ways to do better.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Without belaboring (but including for completeness) I
offer my working definitions of various uses of the term <i><b>Reality</b></i>:</p>
<p>1) Operational Pragmatic Reality: <i><br>
</i></p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>That which <span>affords coherent behavior</span>—the
reliable background against which action can occur.
As from ecological psychology (</i>Gibson<i>’s
affordances), predictive processing (</i>Friston<i>),
and some aspects of (our beloved) </i>Peircean<i>
pragmatism?</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>2) Intersubjective Reality:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>That which is constructed, maintained, and enacted
through language and shared narratives. As from </i>Luckman,
Lacan, Foucault<i>?</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>3) Formal (Scientific) Reality:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>That which can be modeled with precision,
prediction, and repeatability. As from Mathematics,
physics, systems theory?</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>4) Experiential Reality: <i><br>
</i></p>
<blockquote>
<p>The immediately given, lived experience—the “suchness”
before concept.<strong> </strong><i>As from </i>Husserl,
Merleau-Ponty, Varela? Whence <i>Qualia</i>.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>5) Placeholder Reality:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>The term “reality” as a placeholder or dummy
variable—used rhetorically to defer deeper ontological
commitments. As from </i>all of us<i> all the time?</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>6) Participatory Reality:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>Reality as not wholly determinate </i>until <span>observed
or enacted</span><i>—that is, it co-arises with
participation.</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>7) Linguistic Manifold Reality:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>LLMs inhabit and approximate intersubjective
reality. Each language model represents a “manifold”
within a semantic plenum. “Reality” is the
high-dimensional attractor surface that forms when
enough participants (biological or artificial) <span>converge</span>
on something shareable, predictive, and compressible.</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Enactivism / Autopoiesis / Dependent Co-Arising (EAC) is
not a single category in this typology—it is a <strong>meta-theory
of reality-generation</strong>, operating across:</p>
<ul>
<li>
<p><strong>Operational</strong> → it explains the <em>conditions
for affordances</em></p>
</li>
<li>
<p><strong>Intersubjective</strong> → it explains <em>how
we co-construct the shared</em></p>
</li>
<li>
<p><strong>Experiential</strong> → it explains <em>how
we inhabit the lived</em></p>
</li>
<li>
<p><strong>Participatory</strong> → it explains <em>why
observation creates reality</em></p>
</li>
</ul>
<p>And it gently critiques:</p>
<ul>
<li>
<p><strong>Formal</strong> → by showing its limits</p>
</li>
<li>
<p><strong>Placeholder</strong> → by showing its
necessity</p>
</li>
<li>
<p><strong>LLM-based</strong> → by asking what is
missing for full participation</p>
</li>
</ul>
<p><br>
</p>
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