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<p>DaveW -</p>
<p>Same to you and more of it ;>)</p>
<p>I don't dismiss the fact that the bureaucrats (including my
father during his tenure) have a whole different set of values and
skills than the guys opening/closing their irrigation gates,
moving salt around grazing areas to encourage the "slow elk" (aka
cattle) to graze more evenly, cutting new roads into the forest to
access mineral /timber resources, etc. Naturally those trying to
make a living (actually always a *profit* by some measure) will
have a different balance between the resources they expend and the
resources they extract than the folks who (on the surface) are
charged with protecting a commons for the entire citizenry. I
doubt you can find many 'locals' in an extractive-industry
(including ranching) area who don't believe that the "public land"
is more *theirs* than it is yours or mine or some jerkball living
in the Penthouse of Trump Tower. Homesteading was a mechanism
for such.</p>
<p>I also acknowledge that the unique way Utah (Deseret) was formed
and artifacts like outlawing polygamy, etc. makes the
one-size-fits-all approach a modest failure. My own experience
splitting my life between AZ and NM reflects that as well. And
my experience in CO (and UT to a lesser extent) shows our
4-corners are 4 unique histories/milieus. So yes, I bet the
Mormons living in Southern Utah (thanks for more backround on the
<a href="https://www.britannica.com/place/Orderville">Orderville
history</a>) have an extra twist in their undershorts as might
the Ute/Paiute/Dine descendents on the other side of the<a
href="https://www.uen.org/utah_history_encyclopedia/b/BLACK_HAWK_WAR.shtml">
Black Hawk War</a>.</p>
<p>Trump didn't drain any swamps, he brought his own swamp creatures
in (alligators to crocodiles?). It was a pretty promise, but it
was never a good faith promise... about 1/10 of my "rural" friends
seemed to get that early on (2015) and maybe that number is up to
1/5 now and the possible decimation of the VA,
Medicare/Medicade/SS and the privatization of public lands might
bump that up a little more, but somehow there seems to be a
nose-face spiting afoot?<br>
</p>
<p>I suggest this is an indication of how virulent such folks (also
find many working class not-so-rural versions) feelings are
against the presumed "ruling elite" or "libtards" or "wokes" are
that they can still choke down Trump's (and his metastisizing
minions) worst (clearly deliberate and formulated) behaviours.</p>
<p>I'm not clear on your Carbon point. If you are suggesting that
cutting back the giant sucking, industrializing, combusting of
sequestered carbon-as-petroleum/coal/NatlGas would have some
untoward environmental consequences compared to continuing the
drill-baby-drill/burn-baby-burn/pedal-to-metal heuristic we
currently are dead set on, then I'm pretty confused as to what
that would be? I do accept that if the Fossil Fuel industry
(from wealthy owners/executives thereof down to the poor bloke who
chose to follow in his father's footsteps working on a driling rig
or downhole in a coal mine) were to lose it's momentum to other
(not without *their* unintended consequences) forms of
hyper-industrial/hyper-corporate/hyper-technological methods of
obtaining/routing energy to our hungry mob of humans called modern
technological civilization, that the unintended
(economic/cultural) consequences would be significant, possibly
outrageous and true-to-form possibly "worse than the last"... not
because our former methods weren't highly problematic, or because
the specifics of the new plan are acutely problematic, but because
"kicking the can down the road" is always a problem?</p>
<p>I am definitely a fan of Brunner with <i>Shockwave Rider </i>my
favorite and <i>Zanzibar </i>(probably) my first. I was a very
different person when I read the referenced <i>Sheep</i>. Maybe
not so different cum <i>Shockwave Rider</i>. Reviewing the
material, I see the very specific theme of <i>Sheep </i>being a
very direct and apt reference to the current discussion: to wit,
palliatives and half-measures. <br>
</p>
<p>The <i>Club of Rome Quartet</i> is now on my to (re)read list...
thanks for the nudge, it might creep above my re-visit to Wil
McCarthy's <i>Collapsium/Bloom</i> series.</p>
<p>= SaS<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/16/2025 8:51 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:04ec0c66-741b-4f3e-a80e-75f400b500d7@app.fastmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<title></title>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Steve,</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Raining all day today,
thunderstorms last night, temp in high sixties. Wonderful
relief.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Enjoyed your thoughtful response
and agree with what you say with some minor addenda:</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">1) people in general in southern
Utah: probably close to 90% Mormon and 70% Trump voters. But,
issues like climate change, trans folk, immigrants, etc. were
never hot button issues. "Government over reach" was THE primary
reason for voting Trump. (People thought he might correct it by
dismantling the deep state, and to some extent that is
happening). The overreach of concern were things like EPA trying
to regulate irrigation ditches and BLM changing rules on
'cows-per-acre' on government land and national monuments. There
is also a lot of anti-Federal government resentment stemming
from the time Utah became a state and the Feds not only outlawed
polygamy, but also took the right to vote away from women and
forced the breakup of the United Order. Orderville, was probably
the best success story for United Order, amassing immense wealth
and controlling a territory from the Colorado river, on east and
north of Grand Canyon, to almost St. George on the west and
Bryce Canyon to the north. And, there is a definite sense that
"we know better than some pointy-head bureaucrat, laced with a
dose of entitlement.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">2)There was also a lot of push
back on climate solutions, like electric vehicles—deemed totally
impractical because of typical travel distances out west.
Example, it was a 120 mile round trip from my house to the
nearest major grocery store.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">3) probably not a misquote, but
more a mis-statement on my part. I definitely was pretty
dismissive of the popular and political expressions of climate
crisis because they seemed so superficial and almost silly to
me. But I wish I had taken them seriously enough to actually
engage the science behind the headlines.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">4) I do hold "real scientists" to
be more complicit than you do. Not their fault in a sense, but
when science became the captive of government and large
corporate financing, it pretty much ceased to be "science."</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">5) I won't disagree with you about
carbon, but do reserve the right, should unanticipated side
effects show up, to say I told you so. After all, eliminating
flourocarbons did seem to close the ozone hole with no
unintended consequences.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">6) The problem with any pandemic
or "civil-unrest/toxic-waste/denuded biosphere bed" is making
sure the rich and powerful are, at least, as affected as the
proletariat and poor. BTW, have you read John Brunner's, <i>The
Sheep Look Up</i>? Fun read.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">7) somewhat paradoxically, I used
to be reasonably hard core technological optimistic myself. But,
computing technology and the current AI mania pretty much
destroyed every vestige of optimism.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, at 7:59 PM, Steve Smith wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="">
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="qt-moz-cite-prefix">DaveW -</div>
<div class="qt-moz-cite-prefix">:</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Hi Steve,</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I am living in beautiful Saint
Paul MN: 90 degrees and 90% humidity. No air conditioning in
our house. Dogs retreated to under porch digging nests in
the cooler soil - I just swelter. Oh, the air is polluted
with tons of smoke—"very dangerous level"—from the half of
Canada that is being consumed with fire.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>In St. Paul, don't you have a basement? Nothing like
ground-coupling to mitigate the wild swings of air temperature
we are experiencing.... like the dogs under the porch know!
I've never lived with a basement but always wonderd why a HEPA
or similar filter on a basement window and a fan drawing air
up from the coolth of below wouldn't give some whole-house
relief?</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">My brother still lives in
southern Utah, about midway between Bryce and Zion. There
was a huge fire just to the east of him (about 20 miles)
burning east and north, then the two Grand Canyon fires. Has
had smoke issues a couple of days but nothing more.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>To your next point, were many of your neighbors when you
lived there, climate skeptics? Are they thinking "jewish
space lasers" now?</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I have never been a climate
change skeptic, nor unwilling to acknowledge the role played
by humans.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I was once a mild skeptic myself... mostly in the vein of
what you say later with: "any meaningful effect on forces that
accumulated over 2-10 centuries"... the climate science (not
even called that yet of the 90s was sneaking up on the problem
one metric at a time and were consistently finding "bad news"
but I had a hard time ignoring the implied "hubris" of the
more vocal climate activists (grown out of an environmental
activism of the time which I was significantly aligned with in
spirit if not detail). It wasn't particularl alarmist quite
yet... if anything the folks working on the proto-field were
*under* reacting (as seen in hindsight today).</p>
<p>I was just remembering a short note you once shared
suggesting "the one thing I feel a little guilty about is not
taking Climate Change more seriously earlier"? It might be a
bad misquote and it really doesn't matter... I think we
*all* recognize that things have probably been worse than we
realized for some time? Or not.</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I have been a critic of the
monolithic orthodoxy surrounding the political and
"scientific" posturing. But that is just my general
antipathy to simplistic science.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I think I know that about you and respect it and to some
extent share it. I am not as *allergic* to it as I once was
and find many today. It is this hyper-immune response I'm
trying to understand at the collective level (returning to the
question of whether a mob of angry people is actually an angry
mob in the same way as the people themselves are). </p>
<p> My father's peers from the timber/ranching world were
signicantly hyper-immune to anybody telling them anything
whilst falling back on the idea that "public lands" belonged
to the public (in their case, to them personally somehow)
while ignoring that the spanish-descended settlers in the
valley were there before their grandfathers came with
repeating rifles and rousted these folks who only had hoes and
shovels to defend themselves. They of course were mostly
backfill taking over the semi-traditional hunting/foraging
grounds of the Dine' (Apache) rounded up by the US Cavalry
after the Civil War, who in fact hadn't really been there that
many generations since *they* wandered in from the PNW and
forced the more sedentary, less aggressive Mogollon
(descendents) out. </p>
<p>Some of this is willfully ignorant greed and hubris... but as
I knew these folks (through their kids), they were pretty
sincere about everything they did (otherwise) and had I not
seen it from the Freddy (Federal Government Representative)
side at least part of the time I too might have armed myself
to the teeth and played Waco/Ruby-Ridge/BundyRanch as they
like to ( orat least pretend to be ready to do). And given
the current gutting (to the backbone) of many of the federal
agencies under Trump for the benefit of at least the big
corporations but also, at least superficially the folks I just
referenced who voted for him 3 times and are ready to put him
back in charge for another 30 years even if they have to wheel
his stuffed carcass out on stage with an LLM-driven speaker in
his face, I thnk we have an immune-response problem. I'll
grant that the insults delivered to the body politic that
elicited the immune response were a problem, maybe even (now
we know where it leads) unconsciounable, but it is the immune
response that is killing us.</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Gaia is a <b>complex</b>
system (person)</div>
</blockquote>
<div>I'm a bit panconscious/animistic by temperament myself,
whether i want to project onto the entire earth system
anything acutely human-nature like or not. </div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;">so when scientists treat her
otherwise</div>
</blockquote>
<div>I'd blame engineers and economists and politicians and
specifically those with vested money/power/professional
interests more than "real scientists" though most of the
scientists I've worked with play engineer and vested
capitalist (their grants and salary and even bonuses and other
perks may well depend on pleasing the current powers-that-be)
much of the time. The folks with a non-linear perspective,
with a complex-systems lens, and not too attached to getting
rich and famous and selling their best ideas to the highest
bidder and publishing the most papers, they don't do this so
much.</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;">—as if she was a deterministic
system—and make bold, and dire, predictions, set absolute
tipping points, etc., I just want to scream liar liar. It is
more complicated than that—as our former colleague at FRIAM
used to say.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>I am more incensed by those who *take* those predictions
and tipping points and make them bold and dire and absolute to
promote *their* agenda, than those who ?innocently? gave them
that ammunition. </div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Worse, are the "solutions."</div>
</blockquote>
<div>The geo-engineers among us are the most offensive IMO... to
carry the legacy of the folks who fouled the nest and then
insisting that their new version of "fouling for profit" will
"solve everything" is a good example. Even though I've been a
vehicle-efficiency nut since I bought my first motorcycle,
rode my bicycle primarily during college, and owned (mostly)
high efficiency vehicles of various stripes up to and
including trying to electrify a couple of vehicles (by
thinking hard about it which as it turns out never gets
anything done), I am pretty sure it is the car-culture I was
raised up in (and embrace to this day) that is a big component
of our pollution/energy-consumption/personal dis-connection,
thoughtless hyperconsumption problems. Electrons vs Petrol
vs Diesel and 100mpg vs 10mpg are likely just deck-chairs on
the Titanic.</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;">There is no way to know if
reducing carbon will, in fact, have the effect expected, let
alone, solve the problem</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Au contraire... only a little look into the facts will make
it pretty clear that the "nutrient cycling" of sequestered
carbon from millenia ago into our atmosphere at
mega-industrial rates, as primarily CO2 and CH4 is a YUUUGE
greenhouse driver. I agree that backing off now on driving
the flywheel might seem pretty hopeless, but "put the pedal to
the metal" and "drill baby drill" is not just wrong but
acutely wrong-headed unless of course apocalypse is our goal?
End times? Rapture anyone? I prefer Gibson's "Jackpot"</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;">. And why does anyone think
that human actions over a span of one or two decades will
have any meaningful effect on forces that accumulated over
2-10 centuries?</div>
</blockquote>
<div>If I thought the worst of our
environmental/species-collapse was triggered *more* by the
deforestation of Europe that was *already* a problem in 1492
or the REforestation of North America implied by the Orbis
Spike or the acute particulate pollution raining down on
London (and surrounds) as the Welsh/Brits learned to burn coal
(poorly) and turn it into everything from motive power to
cooking/heat source, or the replacement of horses in NYC circa
1900 with ICE motor vehicles (replacing feet thick layers of
horse manure with "invisible" engine
exhaust,...........................................................
than for example the range of coal/crude-oil/natural-gas to
CO2/CO/particulates we have dumped into the atmosphere in my
adulthood (50 years) then I would agree "it doesn't matter
what we do tomorrow".</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;"> </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">"Human Caused Climate Change"
has ceased to be a scientific issue and become nothing more
than a cudgel used by various groups to increase their
political and economic power at the expense of the others.
(No cynicism here.)</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Yeh, it's used a s cudgel, but I think MAGA took that away
from the lilly livered, bleeding heart liberals and while they
are busy beating them into the ground, are also taking out the
baby seals, beluga whales, silvery minnows, spotted owls, and
the (non-european) immigrants who pick our produce, pluck and
butcher our chickens, clean our toilets and keep our children
from running out into the street in front of 1 ton 'murrican
made 4x4 double-cab dually diesels "rolling coal" while
sporting Trump/Confederate flags not to mention a non-trivial
subset of the folks who wear their MAGA hats too tight and are
ready to vote Trump in again for as many terms as they can
prop his taxidermed carcass up (with an LLM-driven speaker in
his mouth)... </rant></p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Mostly, i am betting on Gaia
to solve the problem in her own way. Probably indirectly
with a mega-pandemic or some such.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm with you on this one, though I think a mega-pandemic
would be a coup-de-grace where my cynicism/schadenfruede side
wants us to wallow in our own civil-unrest/toxic-waste/denuded
biosphere bed which we are making for a few centuries, before
Gaia finally let's us pass on to re-incarnate as-a-species
(whole/group conflation extra-ordinaire) with enough fresh
humility to work our way back up some evolutionary chain to
see if we can do "sentient" better?</p>
<p>And on the other hand Techno Utopians as Pieter (mildly)
represents might be right, we might be able to build humanoid
robots with so many legs and such good dexterity that they can
kick *all the cans* down the road faster than we (and they)
can toss new ones into our own path?</p>
<blockquote>
<div>The snail climbs mt Fuji</div>
<div> Slowly, slowly</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Or maybe not, maybe just pave the planet with PV panels and
data centers so yokels like me can blather on on an internet
Mail List instead of going out and nurturing the fig tree I
thoughtlessly transplanted during the hottest time of the
hottest summer in this area yet? Probably nothing to do with
Carbon cycling... so far our winters aren't getting colder,
maybe I can just help warmer-climate flora/fauna migrate north
through my window.</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a3f1f228-4e49-43ad-a169-cbf81ff4f763@app.fastmail.com">
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, at 5:03
PM, Steve Smith wrote:</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> DaveW -</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> I know you have moved
from SoUtah to the Great Lakes (MI?) but must </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> still have family friends
living back in Utah, not that far really from </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> both the North Rim fire
which just burned the Grand Lodge (and much </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> more) there, and the
LaSal FIreNado that was so spectacular and took out </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> a small off-grid
community there.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> I think you have
reflected on feeling some regret over not taking </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> Climate Change more
seriously earlier (we all have our processes and </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> paths around these types
of things). I grew up around fire and </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> fire-fighting, mostly in
rural pinon/ponderosa forests with my father as </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> a USFS disctrict ranger
who used to also spend one or several multi-week </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> stints leading fire-crews
in the Pacific NW or California. There was </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> no conception of there
being a global scale warming/drying, but I do </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> remember him being
acutely aware that "a good Spring" meant "a bad </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> Summer" in those Pacific
forests, yielding a great deal more </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> undergrowth, etc to carry
fire on the ground even before/outside the </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> bigger-hotter fires that
would travel crown-crown.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> What I'm circling in on
is the question of the general denial we have </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> all perhaps been engaged
in, each in our own way, about the sweeping </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> (nominally global if not
Global) changes which human activity has </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> triggered. I once (a
decade ago?) invoked the idea that homo sapiens, </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> at the end of the
pleistocene, were the cause (as much indirectly as </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> directly) of the plunge
in Megafauna in both the New World and northern </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> Eurasia. Glen schooled
me on the counter-arguments against that theory </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> and I don't need to
re-litigate that range of possibilities so much as </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> to simply point out that
"homo sapiens" is an acutely *potent* species, </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> especially come
neolithics, agriculture, written language, urbanization, </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> modern technological
development (from archimedes to daVinci to the </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> folks doing the work in
Musk's (and others) name).</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> All this background to
open the question of whether the otherwise </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> well-grounded,
fundamentally intelligent, situationally clever folks </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> which I grew up around
and DaveW (and others here I am sure) feel an </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> affinity with or
closeness to (Permaculturists before Bill Mollison?) </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> have shifted "forward" to
recognizing that the rate of change of our </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> (humans + domesticates +
tech + self-modifying tech) is yielding </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> "unexpected consequences"
in a short enough time frame to see the </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> consequences of our
actions (albeit years or decades later, but not </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> generations?). If my
belief that homo-sapiens managed to disrupt the </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> megafauna (by
spearing/driving-them-off-cliffs, or just disrupting all </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> aspects of the ecologies
they depended on) holds any water, no </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> individual likely woke up
one day and asked "where did all the Mastadons </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> go?" or even " where
did those huge hairy, tusky creatures my great </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> grandfather used to speak
of go?", but we are a smear of generations </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> (born 30's through 90s?)
who likely recognize that truisms we grew up </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> with about the natural
world as well as the political and economic </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> system are no longer what
we either were taught to believe they were or </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> came to believe through
our direct experience they were?</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> My father struggled with
the locals who lived on cattle ranching and </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> lumber milling, not
accepting that those resources they depended on were </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> not infiinite... they
saw the limits of "timber sales" and "grazing </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> allotments" a huge
inconvenience (at best) to an acute insult to them </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> and their ability to
"just make a living". The local bar in the town I </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> went to grade school in
sports a taxidermed owl with the sign "eat an </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> owl, save a logger" (for
example). Some of the locals who worked as </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> seasonal fire-fighters
occasionally would get busted for lighting off </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> forest fires to create
work for themselves. My father was very pleased </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> with the roughly 50% of
the ranchers he worked with who actually had </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> studied (formally or
informally) range management and were as eager as </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> he was to make sure that
5-10 years later the grasslands their cattle </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> were grazing on were at
least as healthy as the were today and often </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> they were interested in
returning a formerly overgrazed section into </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> something
yet-more-productive. Then were the other 50% who were just
mad </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> because *they* didn't get
to take *their half out of the middle*.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> Mary's milieu was
primarily W. Nebraska farmers who are still voting </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> Trump back in every
chance they get, even though somewhere along the </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> line, most understand
that the wells they sunk into the Oglala in the </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> 60s are now dry and have
to be deepened and that the dead seeds Monsanto </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> (and their ilk) and
Fertilizers and Insecticides their fathers poured </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> over the landscape with
gusto might well be the source of their cancers </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> and other maladies.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> Our own founder's main
business in this domain (visualizing and modeling </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> Wildfire and many other
topographic/topological registered phenomena) </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> naturally engage with
folks who are acute stakeholders in the areas </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> which are
burning/flooding/toxic-pluming/eroding/etc. I understand </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> that Guerin has his own
(equally good) reasons as Glen not to mix work </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> and FriAM.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> And yet we are watching
something as overwhelming as the Dustbowl of the </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> 30s sweeping the whole
earth, and yet we are arguing over whether EVs </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> cost more to operate
because they are heavier and wear brakes and tires </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> faster? Or whether the
area of strip coal mine rendered useless for </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> other purposes is better
or worse than the same area covered in PV panels?</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> Ok... just a rant...
triggered by my childhood memories of watching </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> fires crown across the
road near our home while watching firenados </div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">> destroy places I'v
evisited and my favorite national Park Lodge burn down.</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">></div>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
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archives: 5/2017 thru present <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a>
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