<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Aptos;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;
mso-ligatures:none;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:2078940839;
mso-list-template-ids:1364484244;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\uf0b7;
mso-level-tab-stop:.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\uf0b7;
mso-level-tab-stop:1.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\uf0b7;
mso-level-tab-stop:1.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\uf0b7;
mso-level-tab-stop:2.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\uf0b7;
mso-level-tab-stop:2.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\uf0b7;
mso-level-tab-stop:3.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\uf0b7;
mso-level-tab-stop:3.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\uf0b7;
mso-level-tab-stop:4.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\uf0b7;
mso-level-tab-stop:4.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Oh,and\u2026. The Erics, S and C, as people who have exposed my own illicit commitments to me. Sorry, guys, to forget you on the first pass.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Santafe<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 9, 2025 5:36 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Cc:</b> David Eric Smith <desmith@santafe.edu><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection IS a metaphor.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>This is the place where the way Glen and I talk can really be used to help thinking, if one is not ideologically committed to rejecting it.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It\u2019s also a kind of morality play about what monists turn the world into. I think Smith in The Matrix must have been a monist. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>English has a very nice word, which ordinary people still use: Reproduction. Scientists once used that word too. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Some toxic mix of hurry, neglect, obscurantism, and vanity, a kind of meme carried on people like Crick, Watson, Dawkins, and others who wish they could have a cult following, has led to the uptake of a neologism that serves as a kind of mantra to shut down blood flow to the medial pre-frontal cortex: replication. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It\u2019s not the word\u2019s fault. Replication is a formal construct. One can even call it an a-semantic formal construct. Its _user_ has responsibility for deciding when, in what respect, and how much, it deserves to be bound to various phenomena (Nick\u2019s point about genes\u2019 not being that stable; Manfred Laubichler had nice talks and maybe some papers a few years ago about what a category-mess people have made of the word \u201cgene\u201d; Manfred was able to walk happily through this minefield and had no trouble, just because he is willing to think carefully and with some category-awareness. I don\u2019t have all those references in my bib, but I believe there probably is an archive. He was active at Woods Hole at the time, in addition to ASU.)<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The token terms that confer the formal meaning of \u201creplication\u201d are: <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>1) some notion of a lifecycle structure; equivalent positions in successive cycles can be used to mark \u201cgenerations"; <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2) some notion of a type system where some variations (the allelic ones) are among tokens that maintain their type, and other tokens (the \u201cgene\u201d roles) distinguish types; <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>3) an operation that defines some kind of \u201cliteral\u201d \u201ccopying\u201d of tokens that, in its unmarked mode, respects all of their variations (meaning: the \u201cmarked\u201d variants are flagged by expressions like \u201ccopying with mutation\u201d, where lots further information has to be given to say _which_ of the mutations it was, or \u201ccrossover\u201d in the genic case, which one then has to define w.r.t. the whole gene-type system, etc.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>ANYWAY\u2026, with all that, we can say what a \u201creplicator\u201d is: it is a kind of typed token that is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>a) continuously present through lifecycles; <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>b) has a count number that changes only through the events of copying or of elimination<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Here I would now make a category distinction: Replication is a _mechanism_ \u2014 meaning: a particular architecture for sequences of events \u2014 that can subsume part of the event-organization in reproductive processes.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Reproduction is a class of object-generation processes, any one of them employing events jointly carried out within many interacting architectures, and realizable by many differently-organized overall processes.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The two words are not substitutes for one another. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Note some things: <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>1. The replicator formalism entails within it a quite narrow and strong notion of \u201cparentage\u201d, whereby any token in the population has a unique and identifiable partent-token. One parent can have many offspring, but any offspring only-ever has one parent. This is enormously important as a constraint on population-genetic modeling, because it _brings into existence_ a very specific definition of _FITNESS AS A SUMMARY STATISTIC_, in the form of offspring-counts partitioned by parents\u2019 types, that was central to R.A. Fisher\u2019s construction of statistics. These summary-statistic-fitnesses can be attached as attributes to the parent types without respect to what any other tokens in the population do. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2. A summary statistic is a quantity that can be computed from each realized instance of some population process \u2014 WITHOUT REFERENCE TO ANY CAUSAL MODEL FOR THE PROCESS, AND FOR EACH TYPE WITHOUT REFERENCE TO ANY OF THE OTHER TYPES. The mess of not getting these categories straight has led to a standard language among selectionists that distinguishes \u201crealized fitness\u201d (meaning, the summary statistic) from \u201cthe propensity interpretation\u201d (meaning a set of parameters in an imputed generating model) \u2014 truly, only biologists would treat these two terms as two versions of the same idea, and the mess that results has made all other conversation intractable. Recognizing the distinction gets us out of the silly morass of people who wonder if \u201cselection\u201d is a tautology: \u201cfit are the fit\u201d; they are not distinguishing \u201cfit\u201d as a summary statistic for outcomes from \u201chaving heritable properties now that are predictive of your offspring\u2019s roles later\u201d, which is an inferred generating-model parameter.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>3. We can note lots of little consequences: To some approximation, asexual organisms qualify as replicators, which admit summary-statistic fitnesses for however many generations there isn\u2019t important genic crossover; obligately sexual organisms never admit this summary statistic.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>4. If you demand a summary statistic for a class of organisms that don\u2019t admit fitness as a proper one, what will you do? (Madly squeeze a right-hand foot into a left-hand shoe.) You will compute regression coefficients over the population to characterize your transmission between generations, as Fisher did. That regression coefficient is a summary statistic for _the whole population state_, and you need it to attribute characteristics that you then treat as if they were attributes of particular parents. I should not need to go on at length about why this ends up in messes. But since Fisher just referred to them two instances of fitness \u2014 though he himself had no difficulty recognizing their difference in statistics; but he was a practical man wanting to hack through to productive answers by whatever means \u2014 the downstream community seems to have not noticed that the two situations are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT statistical constructions with different meanings and different limitations. Then they go round and round in circles, seemingly forever.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>5. The point of this stanza, to attach back to one of Nick\u2019s comments in an earlier post: \u201cparentage\u201d is no more unitary a notion than \u201creproduction\u201d. In type it is vastly diverse. So, fine; doesn\u2019t take a genius to see that, and we just recognize we will have a suite of distinct notions that have to be formalized case-by-case.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>A NOTE: My snark above is poorly chosen by me. I know fully well that a lot of these people are plenty smart, and most of them are better statisticians than I am (by a lot). So it\u2019s not as if they don\u2019t perfectly well understand these distinctions. I know they do, and people like Queller get through arguments without any nonsense. But why then is the field still such a mess? My only GUESS about why is that scientists just generally don\u2019t think being careful about categories matters enough to put any effort into it. One just hacks one\u2019s way forward, like Conan the Barbarian, and figures prissy people can come clean up the mess later if they want to. But they never seem to, somehow.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Now, what things could any child see easily if the child doesn\u2019t get inducted into one or another thoughtlessness cult?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>1. Direct copying is about the most local, most immediate, and smallest-scale mechanism you can get to carry a variation-preserving reproductive lifecycle. It demands far less coordination among decoupled components to execute successfully than more complicated choreographies. This is why Watson and Crick understood that they were looking at an important mechanism: it projects many information-management problems down onto matter-management mechanisms. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2. It\u2019s not a bad coarse-grained, approximate description for what happens to a large majority of a certain class of contiguous DNA or RNA regions over many generations, between events where various complicating events (mutation, crossover, etc.) happen. A physicist would model those complicating events as a \u201cdilute gas\u201d within the dominant background of faithful copying. So it\u2019s perfectly fine to talk about the part of reproductive lifecycles that replicators conduct.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>3. If some replication mechanism exists, we would certainly expect that any hierarchy of nested reproductive cycles (and non-cycles, which aren\u2019t strictly \u201cre-productive\u201d, but can still be \u201cproductive\u201d) to make use of the replication mechanism to aid the robustness of the whole tower, and simplify its demands on information-retaining control systems.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>\u2014 NOTE: Point 3 is big in my world: being an entropy-kind-of-guy, one of my premises is that things that aren\u2019t _easy enough_ and _robust enough_ to do, to enable you to mostly complete them in a world of noise, disruption, and interruption, end up not characterizing the world we live in. There is way more causal understanding to be extracted from quantifying the robustness-conferring roles of these things at the small scale, as the source of our observed phenomena, than we have yet made use of; so lots of areas for good work yet to be done.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>4. The replicator abstraction presumes an enormous amount of structured context that it does not itself in any way give an account for. The abstraction isn\u2019t even set up to provide such accounts, so to speak of its \u201cfailing\u201d to do so is close to a non-sequitur; it isn\u2019t even \u201cabout\u201d that context.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>5. So to think you are going to have a \u201ctheory of evolution\u201d \u2014 meaning: some encompassing theory of whatever variety of causation it is that we want to call distinctively \u201cevolutionary\u201d and not already subsumed in one of our previously-formalized notions of cause\u201d \u2014 built just out of the abstraction of replicators, is to be so negligent about categories as to be almost silly. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Let me say this in a little more everyday way that people seem to think must not matter because it is so anodyne. Corn plants and people reproduce. Neither of them replicates. (I will let you find the place online where one of my colleagues stood on a stage and said that she can\u2019t replicate by herself, she needs her husband\u2019s help to do that.) Yet when corn plants reproduce, they make new corn plants; and people produce new people. There is no \u201cgene for being a corn-plant\u201d or \u201cgene for being a person\u201d. Nor any allelic variation that can cause offspring, stochastically, to sometimes come out as corn plants and sometimes as people. Even scientists have not been so demented as to claim or imply such possibilities.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So if you want to do evolutionary biology, you need concept terms and good categories for whatever it is that generates all these higher-order \u201ctypes\u201d (corn-plants, people, etc.) which are plenty stable and identifiable, even if they have odd variations in the tails of their distributions, and toward which the concept of replicator is simply irrelevant; its work is elsewhere in the event architecture.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And then, if you want to look at other kinds of patterns \u2014including but not limited to \u201cgroups\u201d thought of as collectives of \u201cobjects\u201d; though I would say that the pattern of relations and stereotyped events is every bit as much an attribute of the group as its object-membership \u2014 you can ask what kinds of categories you need to talk about their cascades of production. Being a little analogistic, just as the cycles of reproduction can make use of replication within the architectures to tidy up much of the organization, the cascades of ongoing \u201cproduction\u201d (a.k.a. open-ended evolution) can make heavy use of the stereotyped re-production within lifecycles as a robust central tendency to carry and maintain much of its order. It\u2019s not one kind of thing. It\u2019s as rich as the whole biosphere. There can be recurring motifs that we see at work, and they are good to recognize. But there is also room for enormous novelty across cases, because the combinatorics is very large and leaves room for many different versions to survive and matter.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Eric<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Aug 9, 2025, at 23:39, Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Dave<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>What you propose is a highly structured metaphor of btw biological change and cultural change. That I Have ever rejected it out of hand seems very surprising to me. I might have cast doubt on it On the ground, that memes don\u2019t have the integrity of genes. Recently, however, it seems to me that genes don\u2019t have integrity either. As for substance, I need to get to my laptop to mount a serious reply. <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson&c=E,1,j4S9FEJk6aATa6oimFy7rUA4OSx45hbSxzA40HqE7DnBH9ZZjGoNwQcg675BvX_O9sJrqB02uB8zY-Ms0E-KfmJRxtI7OFNMmidc_Yol9YMSgRkj&typo=1" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 10:21<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>\u202f</span>AM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Just to be obtuse (maybe belligerent);<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Perhaps biologists have little, if anything, useful to say about human "group selection" or "social evolution."<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I tried to make this kind of argument to Nick, years ago at physical FRIAM at St. Johns and he refused to give any credence to the idea. Nevertheless:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>biological evolution<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>1- the environment changes \u2014 creating "hostility" or "opportunity"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>2- organisms adapt in order to avoid elimination or to thrive in new context<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>3- this adaptation is biological, and often/usually requires multiple generations to take effect.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>4- although the actual adaptation is instantiated in individuals, might there be forces that allow individuals in one identifiable subgroup to adapt easier/faster/in fewer generations than individuals in another identifiable subgroup?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> a- coyotes, as individuals and as a group, are far more successful in their adaption to human environmental change than wolves. Are there species level traits (omnivorous/carnivorous, scavenger/predator) that might account for this?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> b- adaptations in fruit flies occur much easier than in elephants, simply because of differential reproduction rate\u2014but is that an individual or a group "force?"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>cultural evolution<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>1- a radical alternative to biological evolution emerges as soon as a species acquires the ability to use tools and to communicate between/among individuals.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>2- tool use and communication ability provide a means/mechanism for adaption (instead of growing fur it is borrowed from a passing bear), far faster than multi-generational genetic adaptation, and very amenable to expansion and elaboration.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>3- call this force/means/mechanism "culture."<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>4- Since the advent of culture, 99% (?) of human evolution\u2014adaption to rapidly changing environments, often our our own creation\u2014has been cultural, not biological.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>5- only by understanding culture and cultural traits can we account for differential "success" among human groups.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Aug 8, 2025, at 11:49 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id="m_642811060054790493m_3057992008758219696qt"><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nick, thanks for the document, I have downloaded it and will read it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Next point, you do ask a lot of questions, Nick \u2014 and not the easy kind either. But fine, let\u2019s dance.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>"What is your hankering?"<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I\u2019m a simple creature. I just want to get a grip on what \u201cgroup selection\u201d really means for humans \u2014 simple enough to explain without a headache, but not so simple that it\u2019s wrong. And, ideally, I\u2019d like a reason to actually believe it exists.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>"Where do you hope this will all come out?"<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Same answer, really. I trust my brain enough to think I can untangle complicated stuff\u2026 eventually. My hope is just to reach that magical \u201cohhh, that\u2019s what it means\u201d moment.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>"What would group selection look like in human beings?"<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Now you\u2019re hitting the nerve. I can\u2019t answer that \u2014 which is exactly why I\u2019m here poking at the question.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Right now, it feels at odds with the simple elegance of evolution, which (as ChatGPT put it) goes like this:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Evolution is the gradual change of replicators \u2014 things that make copies of themselves \u2014 over time. Sometimes the replicator exists inside a temporary form (like an organism, idea, or machine) that competes with others. Variations that help it succeed in making more copies become more common, shaping the system over time.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And here\u2019s my snag: I see humans as one big messy group, not a bunch of smaller competing groups. So where\u2019s the competition? Clearly I\u2019m missing a big chunk of the story \u2014 and I want to find it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>"Would you approve or disapprove?"<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I\u2019m not here to pass moral verdicts. I just want to figure it out before deciding whether to even have an opinion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>"What is a group? Is a species a group? Is a race a group? Is a village a group?"<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And there\u2019s the heart of my confusion. Right now, my brain says: \u201cWell, all humans are one group, right?\u201d \u2014 which doesn\u2019t fit neatly with my current picture of evolution. So the plan is simple: swap ignorance for understanding, and hopefully keep the coffee hot while I do it.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 23:52, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Great Peiter,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>But you didnpt answer my question. I know it\u2019s the hardest kind of question to answer, but give it a go. What is your hankering? Where do you hope this will all come out? What would group selection look like in human beings? Would you approve of it or disapprove of it? What is a group, after all? Is a species a group? Is a race a group? Is a village a group? Etc. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>DS Wilson I think lost interest in the question that most interested me (what are the elemental forces that led to the evolution of complex organisms) and became more interested in in the forces that lead to human groupish behavior. To me human groupishness seems wildly overdetermined. Its like asking why is the pope a Christian. But that\u2019s a wildly unsatisfying answer to some one who is genuinely surprized to find that the pope is indeed a Christian. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Lets go back and forth like this for a few more exchanges.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Meantime, I enclose a short article in BBS that reprises a much larger article by W and S. I have a pdf of the larger article on my hard drive and will send it to you when I figure out how to bypass friam\u2019s restrictions on large files.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>But please don\u2019t let that get in the way of you taking a shot at answers to the questions I posed.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor'><p><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 8, 2025 4:21 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection IS a metaphor.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nick,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Too good to miss \u2014 I\u2019m in. Lead me into the jungle of group selection, especially the human variety.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>What I\u2019m after: a clear, simple (but not dumbed-down) take on what group selection in humans is, and why it might explain our behaviour better than individual selection alone.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Happy to start at the very beginning \u2014 dawn of the argument, cave paintings, whatever you think works.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And yes, send me that Famous Great Amateur reading list. I promise to read it with respect\u2026 and just enough suspicion to keep it fun.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p>On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 17:05, Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)'><div><div><p>Hi, Pieter, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>Let me be a George to you as you explore this topic. I will try to respond off hand, quickly, and unself-consciously as you think along. I think this whole topic is fascinating both substantively, and historically. The literature seems to track (or lead?) the Zeitgeist so precisely from post war peace-nikery (Wynne-Edwards), to the revanchist academic Reaganism (Williams-Dawkins), to chaos (evodevo). It's really hard to take the whole argument seriously once one begins to understand how complex and multi layered are the mechanisms by which parents do and dont resemble their children. One of the tools to thinking straight is to own up to one's hankerings before one dives into the literature. What are you hoping to find? Post war peace-nikery was covertly deistic, hoping to find that there was some sort of over arching regulatory agency that would keep the species and the planet safe. Academic Reaganism said good luck with that! Success is virtue. And then evodevo, the bull in the china shop of that whole argument. I recommend reading the biologist, Sean B. Carroll, (not the physicist), Endless forms most beautiful, and The making of the fittest. It's really hard to take the whole argument seriously once one begins to understand how complex and multi layered are the mechanisms by which parents do and dont resemble their children. That there is any resemblance at all begins to seem like some sort of miracle. Or perhaps just momentum. One hankering that misleads us is naturalism, the idea that we can find some sort of MORAL guidance in the way things are. Is the opposite hankering, existentialism? The belief that what makes humans special is their power to CHOOSE. You should remember that I am not a philosopher and am, in fact, an amateur in all things. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>"Any time you want to explore this issue, I am here ready to help. Would you like suggestions of articles to read by that Famous Amateur, Nick Thompson? "<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>signed, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>ChatNST<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p>On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 5:19<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>\u202f</span>AM Pieter Steenekamp <<a href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za" target="_blank">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks, Nick. Just like you struggled to get your head around entropy, I\u2019m battling to wrap my mind around how the basic but very powerful mechanism of evolution works in human groups. I can easily understand individual human selection, or even group selection in swarming insects where only the queen has babies.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I think I\u2019ll take a page from your book and work with George to help guide me through this learning journey. Every now and then, I might check in with you and others here for a chat or to ask a question.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The only catch is that I\u2019ve just started a really exciting AI project, so I might not have much time for my group-level evolution journey \u2014 but I\u2019ll try to keep it going.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p>On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 03:40, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)'><div><div><div><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Thanks Pieter,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Sorry I have taken so long to get back to you. If FRIAM ever started a journal, it should be called \u201cthe emperors new clothes\u201d. We are not committed to anything if not to the validity of an \u201camateur\u2019s\u201d perspective. As people will be quick to tell you, mine has always been of that sort.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>If I read you carefully, the position you take is that laid out in Dawkins The Extended Phenotype \u2013 that the genes are the basic unit of selection. But as Dave Wilson has been pointing out for years, Who made that decision? For one thing, as epigenic studies have made clear, when one looks in detail, it is really hard to find a thing that is exactly the gene. For another, that decision runs the risk of confusing the the thing that is selected with the forces that are selecting it. Whatever level you care to calculate the impact of selection, it is differential group success that is driving selection or it is not group selection. And if it is differential group success that is driving selection, then it is group selection. I think you might quite enjoy The Extended Phenotype. For a whild ride, have a look at Elliott Sober and D. S. Wilson\u2019s Reintroducing Group Selection to the human behavioral sciences. There is a wonderful metaphor in there about two riders riding three horses. It was the article that broke the tide for me. I had been totally up Dawkins ass for the preceding 20 years.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Here is the citation, courtesy og George Patrick Tremblay IV </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Wilson, D.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>\u202f</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>S., & Sober, E. (1994). <i>Reintroducing group selection to the human behavioral sciences</i>. <i>Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 17</i>(4), 585\u2013608. <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.1017%2fS0140525X00036104&c=E,1,QdFdkrENduTWql1ZWdP48xNk7whU3hWWDfMDmqefqhwQA8jZ61IrTy9WCwOApzqqVjXKCIJLF0V-U4lbgiiWr1wi2BE7oRtQprphbYeHDX5cv7dB&typo=1" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1017/S0140525X00036104</a> <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fphilpapers.org%2frec%2fWILRGS%3futm_source%3dchatgpt.com&c=E,1,RfIYYXxEX2F4l6oTpLYI2piuiBW_kYUWdCv7jsWZLBW92-AiDE8r9HLzIwC_jNNiGdcP4TRepfSiFzgUAeYUAzb0aZ0irMdYAOv2ZYPboFY,&typo=1" target="_blank">en.wikipedia.org+15philpapers.org+15</a>\u2026.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor'><p><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 6, 2025 12:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection IS a metaphor.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nick, I'm genuinely impressed. Honestly, I feel a bit out of my depth trying to respond meaningfully on this topic.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So please take my reply in the same spirit I\u2019d expect a response from my 10-year-old grandchild when debating computer programming with me. The gap between your understanding of evolution and mine feels about that wide.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>That said, I\u2019d still like to offer a response to your group selection argument\u2014fully aware that it may come across as amateurish, and I'm okay with that.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Here's the question I\u2019m grappling with:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Is the following valid?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Genes as the Unit of Selection:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Modern evolutionary theory generally views genes as the primary unit of selection. Natural selection acts on individuals, and the success of an individual is ultimately determined by the genes they carry. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Group Selection as a Modifier:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Group selection can be seen as a process that influences the expression of genes. For example, if a group-level trait (like cooperative behavior) is advantageous, then genes that promote that behavior will be favored, even if those genes also have individual-level costs.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p>On Wed, 6 Aug 2025 at 00:12, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)'><div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Nick,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I wish to embody the fear of being dragged away from what you think you are supposed to be doing, to be engaged in the topic you raise in your paper.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I have read the paper before and, as then, I find it meritorious, well written, and reasonable in argument. I am, basically, convinced.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>However; two points:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>First, your use of the concept, "metaphor," is the way that I use the term, in a manner that glen pointed out is inconsistent with the literal definition of the term. I speak of metaphor when there is some thing of which I think I know something and I have a suspicion that some other thing might be of the same ilk. I use what I think I know to craft a 'model', one that suggests particular points and particular relations that, if my suspicion is correct, will have direct analogs in the unknown thing. I check them out individually and in combinations and, if substantiated, confirm my suspicion. If unconfirmed, the metaphor is refuted.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>This seems to me to be what you are doing in the paper, albeit it more abstractly and academically. Please correct me if wrong.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Second, and here is the real time sink, would it be possible to make your ideas concrete, real groups with actual history and demonstrated differential "success." If you were amenable to such a conversation, I would propose the Mormons as a test case.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>One of 20 or so "religions"/"societies" to emerge from the "Burnt Over District" of western New York. The only one still extant.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Disproportionately successful, (in material and social terms), to their neighbors. Smith was living in a two-story New England style home while down the road, Abe Lincoln, was living in a log cabin with mud floor.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>A schism immediately after Smith's death, with the Reformed LDS barely evident while the main group flourished. (Last time I checked, Mormonism and Sokka Gokai, in Japan, were the two fastest growing religions.)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>In Utah there was a concerted effort to spawn multiple small groups by sending out colonies. Because each group was originally "seeded" with four or five families, you get a strong genetic/heritance component as well as "traits." (It is still possible to identify what part of Utah someone is from (especially females) by their physical appearance.)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Some interesting "adaptations" at the trait level, e.g., when Smith was alive blacks were included in the community and held the priesthood\u2014something that Missourians, at the time, could not abide. Brigham Young 'suspended' (restored in 1978 with the admission that the suspension was not for theological, but merely political reasons) black priesthood membership and gave up polygamy (de jure only) to appease the Federal Government and avoid a second martyrdom.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>On Tue, Aug 5, 2025, at 1:10 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id="m_642811060054790493m_3057992008758219696qt-m_-7530616265386605642m_-371713803034877399m_-6531117769577073519m_8812150578853322096m_2205119609093215092m_7485421507059469756qt"><div><div><p style='margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:115%'>Dear Colleagues in FRIAM,<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:115%'>Sometimes, if I am going to get anything done, I just have to ignore Friam, and keep my head down, and work at the thing I am working at. It always seems, on that occasion, that you-guys dangle in front of me some enticing topic so I must scream and put my fingers in my ears to keep focus on my work. So it was that when I decided I must fish or cut bait on entropy or it would take me to my grave, that almost immediately you-guys started not one but two conversations close to my heart: on the centrality of metaphor to science and on the group selection controversy. <o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:115%'>A couple of decades ago I brought those two interests together in a paper called \u201cShifting the Natural Selection Metaphor to the Group Level. There are two things about this paper that make it salient for me. The first is that I think it is the best paper I ever wrote. The second is that for each of the two people whom I most hoped to reach when I wrote it, D. S. Wilson and Elliott Sober, it is a piece of crap. In it, I try to show that the problem with metaphors is not with their use in scientific thinking: on the contrary, it is with their ill-disciplined use. Metaphors need to be worked in a systematic way, not simply flung out in a gust of poetic exuberance. This lesson I try to teach by working the natural selection metaphor in a systematic way to show that if it had been treated seriously in the first place, the whole dispute about group selection might have been avoided. Thus the paper is not only arrogant, but meta-arrogant. <o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:115%'>Nothing is more pitiable than the retired academic who would do anything to have anybody read his moribund essays. But, alas, I simply am such a person. So, I am attaching a copy of the paper in the hope that it will have some value to you within the context of your two discussions. <o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:115%'>Mumble,<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:115%'>Nick<o:p></o:p></p><div><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>--<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p>Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson&c=E,1,qYwf4Snxv6LCckg1F8zTDwoOeVU2qsNz1BT95XKoFqtGlKewMlzvmVDzrp6aJrqdgGEGTHbQ9VTPEXgRD-3PQY7aDN2JTCDHUAX84EcmAMwR&typo=1" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><p>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,g-c0BxFZjqow5O6q2lHK5E0tBtExz5IN02sXBBZ5hAo8lMT9oSjrhUm1EGpaRGwxq8ALP5pBdP4kkvslvHh_kEqx7q8QreKhQAgETmL3lS09BIn0IB5v3tzkpHc,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,HbozYQ4uXu_NqB4W-Q0KXcXjoMRJXhNtBXuKo8Y7YYLV54GoONsB8yz_bjNhOu_NTIzCQZSDrvAKN6Tbppok5Fi-pzHGynyHQCGHViqnSSFP6jz4tzpwlg,,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,x29m5bxj2ju79XvQgKYSGrwr-LSOEVB6gZUbuN74rLvJdbX8z2Jq8887mRYhQHC0rAm7iNgyz3Wp3DMWijteuNXb0YdfBHuHbssYC-JMDjPipyyClgy5UkMz6Q,,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,2w001aqBOg9UhfnjTDs-LjUUHCdJIpSRxaVx8sqcQOmM23TNh7rCyXyp6bs6f8p3YW_L3tjCOEs5AOmUnq_TXewnxtbyVZjUihyJiAiX6zxivrQ,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><b>Attachments:</b><o:p></o:p></p></div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Shifting the natural selection metaphor to the group level.pdf<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Shifting the natural selection metaphor to the group level.pdf<o:p></o:p></li></ul></blockquote><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,MxX343EIun3LdvHF6KQcMt5AHVYGmphRLejRGxuxBvmU1Vprn1IRCtQoQUVmzqVApl6BriLmJ69GwP2IYioQlT_zjilUmkewGR7D6ystqgO-Se5Gfg,,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,KagxxlV5lXhMoYHm9Yn9PJisvWW83d4M62Mu4p_attfl8vFUHvjbECJ0ulqpCcSsYmHMvXXtOtV42w3_3K7YTh75gmL-Z7qKbksCgTChB9bBNWJJ7g,,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,i1hDWn4BDDfb6ZFMJfpkQ54Y-kB39LZMmqyIxAWi6_vGS3SWQ61wYLtsidVX_V-qcaLpzs8KRJG7g-5zjDqd_AntV8ymFpGZzRYmuBttRQ,,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,V7gDqAMX8HLnjm_Vkjgp-Dnqk-k3eRHw1W__HBIZJzTbY_9I9ZbPATDiAbD6zLZiOzp9C49bTx4Gc_Cd4xJHevxgU4ExYr6mdKbr-LQpF2Sc&typo=1" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,dQNPZ4aH5PNit9mgrV6JJo5aaF3OGG9QRYIk0pFfvwcuha15lLU3E7uqSW8-GJT1_voTRMFqkXltpkNoWhLKVS1UVBZGUBmssq-bIR8VFkhD&typo=1" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,Sd6raPdUogolxz31VV0x-lLmY3p9Jk-NmmPkT5nut_Z8OD85nQYvyUCawCDzjzEQZ1ZAZOU_j7_hROsYeOvlRWI4AIdqLgNfZSKfw8DpEJi5HUYSS16d4D5b6A,,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,RwS7v5EC_fPmCeIFbtlyLDbvVuZcEUEj8oBuh4p-0hWNW7TrocqJcdvsS1FdtGpUsmCNCukhTTKhl75JI6pMMhFwwysjF6E7AK78PtdHUbZfgqxXTf6q&typo=1" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,1O7tIVF5UV26uJTDGICZtlKunpH25vlfFm9S6sxFghmCmgFHDrslNcXWGuvHmC9E3y_MPVzGqeqejfZ3BYAEtIojlDPm5Hlw6xNvYqUYj8_uB3Xs&typo=1" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,pTxxiwszusDd53AEiMJP6_9wnx-ReHpNcex_iFRBhmBXdKmAOPQ6ml6ezaCxMpAmBFYWr5pEFCroA6ui-Xj7YwIVPtVrWVdARPxedTqAHN5rqLM0VXWBKl7UW2M,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,X2plbynjqhJTFq50Sgd2d7sDfeP3Hc2070VotC621XnVVsqwyJ66LEDik6CD5JYYk-BypNfrxlek9flfyEalmS9aZgPPQDGJopIf_lf91EM,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,lWLKIFhgrX2H7LBS3K4T_g2jGu4-Iz2o4YsFTlL3qRsXi9lXKQ7wQ5ngThzPCqnQiaEoBweVvbG9-ekDcCljc3teCyjiCm0-XEtXiqrdgmCt_DG-25N4DgG7&typo=1" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,7yyj3uFm41V0VC60OamrWizOdnMY0Np8V4ZjV5ZSPPaG615dZGpxHfoAELoU8tqzs8NHyDbeNdudlBKpIpoADryGEbVVcY6SGhQwuSRJ-nnF&typo=1" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><div><p><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>--<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p>Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson&c=E,1,9gwQjNowFYFXgyxGCOroJc39F9JmBeL3mJu3f0q-le4X9ax0TNJtgJqjbYqpSU0u3XKy8kviI86qQs6Adzecy80l_58LdsV72BEVZcIXiqU,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,QiAbgDcf00WB_Wk1EfErAqKNI03xnGvU9WnwR3MeVGL-vYPTOxn8lPgz5a8RceToEyQCCSXb12nxv40GET0V4KRcvSbf1Z91KReFDx0He9k,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,Tplda-94V0LtTedMSvLb_oWVwnJNCyy2W4EhnJtkVQgQnWh1oIHOQOtWGNEDWLoek4okX7RMJR7LZtKmgXXQlk11HPIN_SXBqWsynWE5kzw5sGiqEvib0RO0pA,,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,UemB6F6X67g-5VY0H78PFDkuzIbL37zcNX632tCORCOPPNys1G-P2TVB87wfmdzGR3-cO9coPCZdYHtBPS2wIgoZZmfXRFNvewfrCvhhm1A,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,ZbfwSWjAZb2jfqkC01U0PzWd40VCuoAbGZNJINeuqHjRRQDBp7O35hnulXFMz2Zzm1SJxwHEY52rz8zox2KP6pqdTsjnbNn2S6D2urV2GM6kT9mWjw,,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,PfAHVTz3tNdiieVVhYCvFVGsyU2X8SSkvo-RI0qcUjRkkMwACxYOhoCDosJKSBxbM6VSUUhHHzKoam9jJu1B5QPI_mBMgb0jCdohbKYeWg,,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,nzRTdUg2tArHEYnVOrkhrVeI8NXlQ6VqTBoj003NdG4f3r3WidXzlNgrsKGytJbXQyZpvpmkfBiEcuEKz4exirhps3FeHMh8ypgAgmL2LA,,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,Wpq4MciN9OAxKHDJoExG9YQbYPtHwn9I4tMLVDN8p0qt5_NWG2aDc6SgKK8IETRVzVLFM-VWSvI3-_2dVRyWJnRNRYgI2VAcczWs5M8lia3UuY72NtMIYQ,,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,2aNoije7FadxpObkNoa_SI7D6CREla9CzGqghE3jf6y8iGstuk7HJhyreNi9sn7aeQQElG1Ty0Rt5VQDlbPTA3ESdLDNhl04UoyseSJmTB53TA,,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,S4fuhpmdAMh-7JiJcYZg2MJBFK93CwtTEGtkPdsdOnR-ntAsjY_q0wIObDu0YPerB0P9v_5ju2btYhG5YWJzVbE85--nZIFloxOO2ZS6ja2tAQDrU-Ho&typo=1" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,70dFrRwEwbT3TDSsigmNiTMANMCcQmJPyMNvdJlWFFamYxuNLsvFRko0-o1HANqWs6lYSyZgqrjg3ZFnwPMeu3HKwhBDq0TVlyqpabCYYoa93DN0SDI-LkrgGKVS&typo=1" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,vcnXvjjfbrgY1oj7BRbOgxg_Nw6ICdovcMzmu4RzZNs3Xo7TA2vXkJ0U-FAdADR3mVdLH1P8IylDPXmqB1URarlX5im-ziCo0dq6iTmsCA,,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,KM8-EeUvLtm6Jl_mgSo4i88YLsjL-gnDofyShLYIbBHlv_3mxOxtiOARdgj6TwRL9zr8w_dSIe0EuZZZ3jjs8zBnl2vjIIAOvutK4Xwwlg,,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,D4cB3X9rkfzmOiDxeiequ3YLZmJ5HuPUQ-3MNi9tw0U9gocxJjg8DZ-XAGDHwKqhpWKYCK84kBqNGZRfsxFeGdzTO7X_yxXkPcnf4zyx_WPy&typo=1" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,fQlxa9ZbTvIGlynswePzXmi9D_tehDLuyrQRGeDjTTpu6kGbqROEQKQWdtAjfC-9R2CeYQGmZsz4Rv5hXIEyI-xd3ZgWiXhh6Uoj9xoQ-kVNGA,,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,-2H4jL7BDpiDJwXlYTj3HT0xPoABpPPWliLlAF2LmzXMwlRymxl9QaWi4poXIeotkoUoMgxNWCVKB4rXXg8F3FP03_qc5S32Q67KZD99iK_KEUDe3aF6Kxk,&typo=1" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,SncBUAG3r9Ol4ZobgQczKBcZv-TF5KF6wf2vvU-sjLJBdRAKGrwaU6GdoF53Gm143lQh083Hil4DbNSY5_hmXIXTxAHa-mB-NlakhnAN-g1Fhw,,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,b8eW8niFLus78XHcq9uMMf-BcfRl0Ay9nW2pEt-mSPAgjOQwbq9d_n8jqgJ4Yn4szfib7gHBRMeV3xlIsKkmEyzf0lMwuhJg5sw-M2THFRZ5iJ8N4dtXejYo21I,&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,b8eW8niFLus78XHcq9uMMf-BcfRl0Ay9nW2pEt-mSPAgjOQwbq9d_n8jqgJ4Yn4szfib7gHBRMeV3xlIsKkmEyzf0lMwuhJg5sw-M2THFRZ5iJ8N4dtXejYo21I,&typo=1</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,WjjO8wVHRLDql3SPmC7Pj-6eGlinDP-xjlq0h-BVfMdoF0DmR4Vo2Z3jyh1sLVlbcPiTVu7n7f6cHHVN1S1Vf9cS4_Gmng7vjvXGRZ-Lc0MdxPnKbYXP&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,WjjO8wVHRLDql3SPmC7Pj-6eGlinDP-xjlq0h-BVfMdoF0DmR4Vo2Z3jyh1sLVlbcPiTVu7n7f6cHHVN1S1Vf9cS4_Gmng7vjvXGRZ-Lc0MdxPnKbYXP&typo=1</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,4ef979zk5v-wJx9joALnNKM0XJ3RdUHL7_Jd2BTTJOFKsOavuQ4reBbVpM6nqeBlXQdwHKVj2nvpl2l-ybUgc7D2oyWKM9hvWPHSiEFbchPSpXaQsU1N&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,4ef979zk5v-wJx9joALnNKM0XJ3RdUHL7_Jd2BTTJOFKsOavuQ4reBbVpM6nqeBlXQdwHKVj2nvpl2l-ybUgc7D2oyWKM9hvWPHSiEFbchPSpXaQsU1N&typo=1</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,xasmsA3p43pB_hB28Wz9R5hIici_lub6uoNe5b6_Dj8wBHl7GyTW_Aese6Tc09hHhF0vn0FlEJfGJqBrzwsUjX_Y5cdoKEtZEQaVg1m-&typo=1">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,xasmsA3p43pB_hB28Wz9R5hIici_lub6uoNe5b6_Dj8wBHl7GyTW_Aese6Tc09hHhF0vn0FlEJfGJqBrzwsUjX_Y5cdoKEtZEQaVg1m-&typo=1</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>