<div dir="ltr">I think I\u2019ve got a handle\u2014maybe totally off the mark\u2014on individual and group selection in human behavioural evolution. Here\u2019s my take:<br><br>What is it?<br>Human behaviour is a deeply complex phenomenon, shaped by two intertwined evolutionary processes:<br><br>Biological evolution (based in our genes), where the unit of selection is the individual human.<br><br>Cultural evolution (based in memes), where the unit of selection is defined at the group level\u2014though \u201cgroup\u201d can mean different things in different contexts.<br><br>That\u2019s it, in my simple words.<br><br>Why do I say so?<br>I asked George to take a deep dive into the topic and produce a report, which you can view here: <a href="https://g.co/gemini/share/b046bfad5cc8">https://g.co/gemini/share/b046bfad5cc8</a> . I buy into its main argument\u2014not claiming it\u2019s \u201ccorrect\u201d in the absolute sense, but in my view it\u2019s the best current explanation for the roots of human behaviour.<br><br>It draws on the latest research and, in the conclusion, puts it like this (paraphrased from the report):<br><br>The multilevel selection (MLS) framework, championed by David Sloan Wilson, integrates individual selection into a broader system of competing evolutionary forces within a nested hierarchy of genes, individuals, and groups. Extending this to cultural evolution, MLS offers a two-track model\u2014genetic and cultural\u2014that better explains human nature. By explicitly modelling the tension between within-group selfishness and between-group cooperation, it provides a richer explanation for complex social behaviours than alternatives like kin selection. The framework has implications beyond biology\u2014touching religion, politics, and economics\u2014and offers a unified, evolutionarily grounded lens on human sociality.<br><br>That\u2019s why, for now, I\u2019m hitching my wagon to this model.<br><div><br></div><div>References<br><h4 style="margin:0cm 0cm 12.75pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Google Sans"">Works cited</span></h4>
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coevolution and the nature of human sociality - PMC, accessed August 11, 2025, </span><a href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3048999/"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Google Sans";color:rgb(0,0,238)">https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3048999/</span></a></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 10 Aug 2025 at 09:41, Pieter Steenekamp <<a href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Nick (aka ChatNJT),<br><br>Are you still my George in this grand quest to truly \u201cget\u201d group selection?<br><br>A bit of backstory<br>When I get into a debate, my natural instinct is\u2026 well, to stay in my own head and not listen much at all. I first got called out on it nearly 50 years ago, back when I was a young engineer in management training. We did simulated negotiations, the instructor took notes, and the verdict was: \u201cYou didn\u2019t hear a word they said.\u201d<br><br>That kicked off my slow, sometimes painful, self-improvement journey. My instincts haven\u2019t really changed (old habits die hard), but now I can force myself to switch gears \u2014 to really listen and understand the other person\u2019s point before I jump in swinging.<br><br>I\u2019ll admit, I lean toward believing in individual selection in human evolution. But I\u2019m genuinely open to being convinced otherwise \u2014 and I want to really understand group selection before I form my final view.<br><br>I said I\u2019d be spending some time learning with ChatGPT, and you kindly offered to be my \u201cGeorge\u201d through ChatNJT. I\u2019ve seen you active in this thread, but I\u2019m not sure if our little backchannel on this is still alive or quietly drifting into the great beyond.<br><br>And hey, in the spirit of \u201cwhy have a mind if we can\u2019t change it?\u201d \u2014 if you want to step back from this role, no hard feelings at all.<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 at 06:49, Pieter Steenekamp <<a href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za" target="_blank">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Nick, thanks for the document, I have downloaded it and will read it.<br><br>Next point, you do ask a lot of questions, Nick \u2014 and not the easy kind either. But fine, let\u2019s dance.<br><br>"What is your hankering?"<br>I\u2019m a simple creature. I just want to get a grip on what \u201cgroup selection\u201d really means for humans \u2014 simple enough to explain without a headache, but not so simple that it\u2019s wrong. And, ideally, I\u2019d like a reason to actually believe it exists.<br><br>"Where do you hope this will all come out?"<br>Same answer, really. I trust my brain enough to think I can untangle complicated stuff\u2026 eventually. My hope is just to reach that magical \u201cohhh, that\u2019s what it means\u201d moment.<br><br>"What would group selection look like in human beings?"<br>Now you\u2019re hitting the nerve. I can\u2019t answer that \u2014 which is exactly why I\u2019m here poking at the question.<br>Right now, it feels at odds with the simple elegance of evolution, which (as ChatGPT put it) goes like this:<br><br>Evolution is the gradual change of replicators \u2014 things that make copies of themselves \u2014 over time. Sometimes the replicator exists inside a temporary form (like an organism, idea, or machine) that competes with others. Variations that help it succeed in making more copies become more common, shaping the system over time.<br><br>And here\u2019s my snag: I see humans as one big messy group, not a bunch of smaller competing groups. So where\u2019s the competition? Clearly I\u2019m missing a big chunk of the story \u2014 and I want to find it.<br><br>"Would you approve or disapprove?"<br>I\u2019m not here to pass moral verdicts. I just want to figure it out before deciding whether to even have an opinion.<br><br>"What is a group? Is a species a group? Is a race a group? Is a village a group?"<br>And there\u2019s the heart of my confusion. Right now, my brain says: \u201cWell, all humans are one group, right?\u201d \u2014 which doesn\u2019t fit neatly with my current picture of evolution. So the plan is simple: swap ignorance for understanding, and hopefully keep the coffee hot while I do it.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 23:52, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Great Peiter, <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">But you didnpt answer my question. I know it\u2019s the hardest kind of question to answer, but give it a go. What is your hankering? Where do you hope this will all come out? What would group selection look like in human beings? Would you approve of it or disapprove of it? What is a group, after all? Is a species a group? Is a race a group? Is a village a group? Etc. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">DS Wilson I think lost interest in the question that most interested me (what are the elemental forces that led to the evolution of complex organisms) and became more interested in in the forces that lead to human groupish behavior. To me human groupishness seems wildly overdetermined. Its like asking why is the pope a Christian. But that\u2019s a wildly unsatisfying answer to some one who is genuinely surprized to find that the pope is indeed a Christian. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Lets go back and forth like this for a few more exchanges.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Meantime, I enclose a short article in BBS that reprises a much larger article by W and S. I have a pdf of the larger article on my hard drive and will send it to you when I figure out how to bypass friam\u2019s restrictions on large files. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">But please don\u2019t let that get in the way of you taking a shot at answers to the questions I posed.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Nick<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 8, 2025 4:21 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection IS a metaphor.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Nick,<br><br>Too good to miss \u2014 I\u2019m in. Lead me into the jungle of group selection, especially the human variety.<br><br>What I\u2019m after: a clear, simple (but not dumbed-down) take on what group selection in humans is, and why it might explain our behaviour better than individual selection alone.<br><br>Happy to start at the very beginning \u2014 dawn of the argument, cave paintings, whatever you think works.<br><br>And yes, send me that Famous Great Amateur reading list. I promise to read it with respect\u2026 and just enough suspicion to keep it fun.<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 17:05, Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi, Pieter, <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Let me be a George to you as you explore this topic. I will try to respond off hand, quickly, and unself-consciously as you think along. I think this whole topic is fascinating both substantively, and historically. The literature seems to track (or lead?) the Zeitgeist so precisely from post war peace-nikery (Wynne-Edwards), to the revanchist academic Reaganism (Williams-Dawkins), to chaos (evodevo). It's really hard to take the whole argument seriously once one begins to understand how complex and multi layered are the mechanisms by which parents do and dont resemble their children. One of the tools to thinking straight is to own up to one's hankerings before one dives into the literature. What are you hoping to find? Post war peace-nikery was covertly deistic, hoping to find that there was some sort of over arching regulatory agency that would keep the species and the planet safe. Academic Reaganism said good luck with that! Success is virtue. And then evodevo, the bull in the china shop of that whole argument. I recommend reading the biologist, Sean B. Carroll, (not the physicist), Endless forms most beautiful, and The making of the fittest. It's really hard to take the whole argument seriously once one begins to understand how complex and multi layered are the mechanisms by which parents do and dont resemble their children. That there is any resemblance at all begins to seem like some sort of miracle. Or perhaps just momentum. One hankering that misleads us is naturalism, the idea that we can find some sort of MORAL guidance in the way things are. Is the opposite hankering, existentialism? The belief that what makes humans special is their power to CHOOSE. You should remember that I am not a philosopher and am, in fact, an amateur in all things. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"Any time you want to explore this issue, I am here ready to help. Would you like suggestions of articles to read by that Famous Amateur, Nick Thompson? "<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">signed, <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">ChatNST<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 5:19<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">\u202f</span>AM Pieter Steenekamp <<a href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za" target="_blank">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Nick. Just like you struggled to get your head around entropy, I\u2019m battling to wrap my mind around how the basic but very powerful mechanism of evolution works in human groups. I can easily understand individual human selection, or even group selection in swarming insects where only the queen has babies.<br><br>I think I\u2019ll take a page from your book and work with George to help guide me through this learning journey. Every now and then, I might check in with you and others here for a chat or to ask a question.<br><br>The only catch is that I\u2019ve just started a really exciting AI project, so I might not have much time for my group-level evolution journey \u2014 but I\u2019ll try to keep it going.<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 03:40, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Thanks Pieter, </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Sorry I have taken so long to get back to you. If FRIAM ever started a journal, it should be called \u201cthe emperors new clothes\u201d. We are not committed to anything if not to the validity of an \u201camateur\u2019s\u201d perspective. As people will be quick to tell you, mine has always been of that sort. </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">If I read you carefully, the position you take is that laid out in Dawkins The Extended Phenotype \u2013 that the genes are the basic unit of selection. But as Dave Wilson has been pointing out for years, Who made that decision? For one thing, as epigenic studies have made clear, when one looks in detail, it is really hard to find a thing that is exactly the gene. For another, that decision runs the risk of confusing the the thing that is selected with the forces that are selecting it. Whatever level you care to calculate the impact of selection, it is differential group success that is driving selection or it is not group selection. And if it is differential group success that is driving selection, then it is group selection. I think you might quite enjoy The Extended Phenotype. For a whild ride, have a look at Elliott Sober and D. S. Wilson\u2019s Reintroducing Group Selection to the human behavioral sciences. There is a wonderful metaphor in there about two riders riding three horses. It was the article that broke the tide for me. I had been totally up Dawkins ass for the preceding 20 years. </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Here is the citation, courtesy og George Patrick Tremblay IV </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Wilson, D.</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">\u202f</span><span style="font-size:11pt">S., & Sober, E. (1994). <i>Reintroducing group selection to the human behavioral sciences</i>. <i>Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 17</i>(4), 585\u2013608. <a href="https://doi.org/10.1017/S0140525X00036104" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1017/S0140525X00036104</a> <a href="https://philpapers.org/rec/WILRGS?utm_source=chatgpt.com" target="_blank">en.wikipedia.org+15philpapers.org+15</a>\u2026.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Nick </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><div style="border-right:none currentcolor;border-bottom:none currentcolor;border-left:none currentcolor;border-top:1pt solid currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pieter Steenekamp<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 6, 2025 12:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection IS a metaphor.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Nick, I'm genuinely impressed. Honestly, I feel a bit out of my depth trying to respond meaningfully on this topic.<br><br>So please take my reply in the same spirit I\u2019d expect a response from my 10-year-old grandchild when debating computer programming with me. The gap between your understanding of evolution and mine feels about that wide.<br><br>That said, I\u2019d still like to offer a response to your group selection argument\u2014fully aware that it may come across as amateurish, and I'm okay with that.<br><br>Here's the question I\u2019m grappling with:<br><br>Is the following valid?<br>Genes as the Unit of Selection:<br>Modern evolutionary theory generally views genes as the primary unit of selection. Natural selection acts on individuals, and the success of an individual is ultimately determined by the genes they carry. <br>Group Selection as a Modifier:<br>Group selection can be seen as a process that influences the expression of genes. For example, if a group-level trait (like cooperative behavior) is advantageous, then genes that promote that behavior will be favored, even if those genes also have individual-level costs.<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, 6 Aug 2025 at 00:12, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none currentcolor;border-right:none currentcolor;border-bottom:none currentcolor;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Nick,</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I wish to embody the fear of being dragged away from what you think you are supposed to be doing, to be engaged in the topic you raise in your paper.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I have read the paper before and, as then, I find it meritorious, well written, and reasonable in argument. I am, basically, convinced.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">However; two points:</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">First, your use of the concept, "metaphor," is the way that I use the term, in a manner that glen pointed out is inconsistent with the literal definition of the term. I speak of metaphor when there is some thing of which I think I know something and I have a suspicion that some other thing might be of the same ilk. I use what I think I know to craft a 'model', one that suggests particular points and particular relations that, if my suspicion is correct, will have direct analogs in the unknown thing. I check them out individually and in combinations and, if substantiated, confirm my suspicion. If unconfirmed, the metaphor is refuted.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">This seems to me to be what you are doing in the paper, albeit it more abstractly and academically. Please correct me if wrong.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Second, and here is the real time sink, would it be possible to make your ideas concrete, real groups with actual history and demonstrated differential "success." If you were amenable to such a conversation, I would propose the Mormons as a test case.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">One of 20 or so "religions"/"societies" to emerge from the "Burnt Over District" of western New York. The only one still extant.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Disproportionately successful, (in material and social terms), to their neighbors. Smith was living in a two-story New England style home while down the road, Abe Lincoln, was living in a log cabin with mud floor.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">A schism immediately after Smith's death, with the Reformed LDS barely evident while the main group flourished. (Last time I checked, Mormonism and Sokka Gokai, in Japan, were the two fastest growing religions.)</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">In Utah there was a concerted effort to spawn multiple small groups by sending out colonies. Because each group was originally "seeded" with four or five families, you get a strong genetic/heritance component as well as "traits." (It is still possible to identify what part of Utah someone is from (especially females) by their physical appearance.)</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Some interesting "adaptations" at the trait level, e.g., when Smith was alive blacks were included in the community and held the priesthood\u2014something that Missourians, at the time, could not abide. Brigham Young 'suspended' (restored in 1978 with the admission that the suspension was not for theological, but merely political reasons) black priesthood membership and gave up polygamy (de jure only) to appease the Federal Government and avoid a second martyrdom.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">davew</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Aug 5, 2025, at 1:10 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" id="m_4790640686431375470m_4420900103864538613m_-7530616265386605642m_-371713803034877399m_-6531117769577073519m_8812150578853322096m_2205119609093215092m_7485421507059469756qt"><div><div><p style="margin-bottom:8pt;line-height:115%">Dear Colleagues in FRIAM,<u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-bottom:8pt;line-height:115%">Sometimes, if I am going to get anything done, I just have to ignore Friam, and keep my head down, and work at the thing I am working at. It always seems, on that occasion, that you-guys dangle in front of me some enticing topic so I must scream and put my fingers in my ears to keep focus on my work. So it was that when I decided I must fish or cut bait on entropy or it would take me to my grave, that almost immediately you-guys started not one but two conversations close to my heart: on the centrality of metaphor to science and on the group selection controversy. <u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-bottom:8pt;line-height:115%">A couple of decades ago I brought those two interests together in a paper called \u201cShifting the Natural Selection Metaphor to the Group Level. There are two things about this paper that make it salient for me. The first is that I think it is the best paper I ever wrote. The second is that for each of the two people whom I most hoped to reach when I wrote it, D. S. Wilson and Elliott Sober, it is a piece of crap. In it, I try to show that the problem with metaphors is not with their use in scientific thinking: on the contrary, it is with their ill-disciplined use. Metaphors need to be worked in a systematic way, not simply flung out in a gust of poetic exuberance. This lesson I try to teach by working the natural selection metaphor in a systematic way to show that if it had been treated seriously in the first place, the whole dispute about group selection might have been avoided. Thus the paper is not only arrogant, but meta-arrogant. <u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-bottom:8pt;line-height:115%">Nothing is more pitiable than the retired academic who would do anything to have anybody read his moribund essays. But, alas, I simply am such a person. So, I am attaching a copy of the paper in the hope that it will have some value to you within the context of your two discussions. <u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-bottom:8pt;line-height:115%">Mumble,<u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-bottom:8pt;line-height:115%">Nick<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">--<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas S. Thompson<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>Attachments:</b><u></u><u></u></p></div><ul type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal">Shifting the natural selection metaphor to the group level.pdf<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">Shifting the natural selection metaphor to the group level.pdf<u></u><u></u></li></ul></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - 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. .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><span>-- </span><u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas S. Thompson<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:nthompson@clarku.edu" target="_blank">nthompson@clarku.edu</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson</a><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>
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