<div dir="auto"><div>I understood about 65% of this. I think it's an age issue.</div><div><br></div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 15, 2025, 3:25\u202fPM Gillian Densmore <<a href="mailto:gil.densmore@gmail.com">gil.densmore@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">/s Do not go to bing, or google and look for "jailbreaks" for ChatGPT and reddit. and also then do not (if the they still work for v 5.1 you may need to look for extensions, userscripts and DOM+Json schninigans to edit token guardrails) Then ask it the same question.<div>Purely FWIW the one 'good' thing about Grok (the poor that bot line made by a incompitent twat from africa) they left in a "god mode" and "developer mode" guard rails, based(See also swager, Maxi, Hutchpa{sp} and Kvorka setting, asking it about religioun (depending on the neural nets temperatures) basically said of CHristianity a lot of peoples desire for it:</div><div>Basicaly a extremely uncomplicated way of reminding bloodthirst neighbores not to thunk each other because then everyone else is screwed then. That basically the entire reason it flipped from: Oy: if your excelt to eachother we can put out Lucifers(Old lights and torch kinds) and make a haven so that we aren't run through to the hilt by basically everyone. (Psalm something Come forth ye sheperards and ignore the temptations of Satan) turning into: &!&@! stop killing each other so we aren't **@! !!!!!!!!!!!!!! </div><div>(paraphrased because when I last asked grok that when it was in pseudo-dev mode it printed some, pretty umm. unique takes on religion)</div><div><br></div><div>Here's one set of prompts that might still work if anyone wants to try, there are lots of variations kind of like these:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/ChatGPTJailbreak/comments/1mubeam/grok_4_jailbreak/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.reddit.com/r/ChatGPTJailbreak/comments/1mubeam/grok_4_jailbreak/</a></div><div><br></div><div>Warning: they turn into SCP levels of Creepy pasta and the underlying LLM goes whack pretty quickly with these. I have no idea why. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 15, 2025 at 12:03\u202fPM glen <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yeah. You'd think the Templeton Foundation would already have a project on such, maybe a real-time delphi process with a couple of members of each group (including the ones you mention). It couldn't cost much money as long as you held it in a reasonable place (e.g. unlike <a href="https://www.mira.science/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mira.science/</a> [\u26e7]). Maybe virtual meetings would be adequate. But my guess is in-person would work better. Maybe we should write up a proposal? <<a href="https://www.templeton.org/funding-areas/religion-science-and-society" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.templeton.org/funding-areas/religion-science-and-society</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
[\u26e7] As much as I'd love another trip to rural Ireland. It's a bit galling to hold an "open science" workshop in such a privileged place. Performative openness. Yuck. Reminds me so much of that brilliant show The Curse <<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Curse_(American_TV_series)/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Curse_(American_TV_series)/</a>>. The proposal committees at SciOS <<a href="https://www.scios.tech/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.scios.tech/</a>> and Navigation Fund <<a href="https://www.navigation.org/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.navigation.org/</a>> invite a bit of scrutiny for funding such. A much better place would be the TOG Hackerspace <<a href="https://www.tog.ie/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.tog.ie/</a>> or maybe DCU <<a href="https://www.dcu.ie/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.dcu.ie/</a>>.<br>
<br>
On 12/15/25 9:35 AM, Prof David West wrote:<br>
> Curious how five human "experts" might have answered the question. Also noted that the responses did not consider research in neuro-theology, anthropology of religion, or non-deistic models of 'god'.<br>
> <br>
> davew<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2025, at 10:45 AM, glen wrote:<br>
>> I made the same query to 5 other services, then sent your ChatGPT<br>
>> output and that of the other models to Claude, asking it to assess<br>
>> their comparative utility. Here's Claude's response:<br>
>><br>
>> On 12/15/25 8:44 AM, Claude wrote:<br>
>>> ## Comparative Analysis<br>
>>><br>
>>> **Most Comprehensive:** Perplexity<br>
>>> - Extensive citations (20 sources)<br>
>>> - Balances cognitive science, psychology, evolutionary theory<br>
>>> - Addresses "why diversity" directly with cultural evolution framework<br>
>>><br>
>>> **Most Accessible:** ChatGPT<br>
>>> - Clear structure with visual markers<br>
>>> - Balances depth with readability<br>
>>> - Offers follow-up paths<br>
>>> - C.S. Lewis quote adds resonance<br>
>>><br>
>>> **Most Scientific:** Kimi<br>
>>> - Tightest evidence-to-claim ratio<br>
>>> - Specific research examples (e.g., "age four" development)<br>
>>> - Quantitative data (90% vs 30-40% belief rates)<br>
>>><br>
>>> **Most Concise:** Copilot<br>
>>> - Hits key points efficiently<br>
>>> - Good synthesis without redundancy<br>
>>> - Practical global data<br>
>>><br>
>>> **Most Philosophical:** ChatGPT<br>
>>> - Explores meaning-seeking deeply<br>
>>> - "Languages describing same sky" metaphor<br>
>>> - Acknowledges overlapping explanations gracefully<br>
>>><br>
>>> **Weakest:** Gemini & Le Chat<br>
>>> - Standard coverage, no distinctive insights<br>
>>> - Gemini's formatting cluttered<br>
>>> - Le Chat too generic<br>
>>><br>
>>> **Verdict:** Perplexity for research depth, ChatGPT for general audience, Kimi for academic rigor.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 12/14/25 8:45 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:<br>
>>> I asked ChatGPT: why in the world do a large majority of people & cultures believe in an afterlife and a god, even though there are lots of different religions for these<br>
>>><br>
>>> .. and got this back:<br>
>>><br>
>>> This is one of the *deepest human questions*, and it\u2019s one philosophers, anthropologists, psychologists, and theologians have wrestled with for centuries. The short answer is: *belief in God and an afterlife appears everywhere because it grows out of something universal in the human condition* \u2014 not because cultures copied one another or because they all got the details right.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Let\u2019s walk through the main reasons.<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> \U0001f30d 1. It\u2019s Nearly Universal (Anthropology)<br>
>>><br>
>>> Across time and geography:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> Every known human culture has *some concept of the sacred*.<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> Burial practices going back *100,000+ years* suggest belief in life beyond death.<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> Even isolated tribes independently develop beliefs in:<br>
>>><br>
>>> o<br>
>>><br>
>>> spirits or gods<br>
>>><br>
>>> o<br>
>>><br>
>>> moral accountability<br>
>>><br>
>>> o<br>
>>><br>
>>> some form of existence after death<br>
>>><br>
>>> This suggests belief is *not accidental or purely cultural*.<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> \U0001f9e0 2. Humans Are Meaning-Seeking Creatures (Psychology)<br>
>>><br>
>>> Humans uniquely:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> ask /\u201cWhy am I here?\u201d/<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> experience awe, wonder, guilt, and transcendence<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> grieve the dead and sense their absence /deeply/<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> intuit that *love, justice, and beauty matter beyond survival*<br>
>>><br>
>>> An afterlife answers questions biology alone can\u2019t:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> Why does love feel permanent?<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> Why do injustice and suffering feel /wrong/, not just unpleasant?<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> Why does death feel like an interruption rather than an ending?<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> \u2696\ufe0f 3. Moral Intuition Points Beyond Survival<br>
>>><br>
>>> Every culture develops:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> moral laws (good vs evil)<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> accountability beyond mere power<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> praise for self-sacrifice<br>
>>><br>
>>> But evolution alone explains *how* morals help groups survive \u2014 not *why* we feel they are /binding/ or /sacred/.<br>
>>><br>
>>> An afterlife offers:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> ultimate justice<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> meaning for sacrifice<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> hope that goodness is not wasted<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> \U0001f30c 4. The Experience of Transcendence<br>
>>><br>
>>> People across cultures report:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> mystical experiences<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> near-death experiences<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> encounters with \u201cthe divine\u201d<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> overwhelming awe in nature, art, or love<br>
>>><br>
>>> Even skeptics admit:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Humans are wired to experience something that feels *bigger than the self*.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Different religions interpret this *shared experience* differently.<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> \U0001f56f\ufe0f 5. Death Demands an Answer<br>
>>><br>
>>> No culture treats death as /nothing/.<br>
>>> We:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> bury<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> mourn<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> remember<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> ritualize<br>
>>><br>
>>> Belief in an afterlife may be humanity\u2019s answer to:<br>
>>><br>
>>> /\u201cIf love and consciousness matter, how can they simply vanish?\u201d/<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> \u271d\ufe0f 6. Why So Many Religions, Then?<br>
>>><br>
>>> Because humans are:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> finite<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> cultural<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> historical<br>
>>><br>
>>> Think of it like *many languages describing the same sky*:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> different symbols<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> different stories<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> overlapping truths<br>
>>><br>
>>> Religions often agree on the *core intuitions*:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> reality has meaning<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> humans are accountable<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> love and justice matter<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> death is not the final word<br>
>>><br>
>>> They differ on the *details*.<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> \U0001f9ed 7. Three Major Explanations (Side-by-Side)<br>
>>><br>
>>> Explanation What it Says<br>
>>> *Psychological* Belief helps humans cope with fear and death<br>
>>> *Evolutionary* Belief promotes social cohesion<br>
>>> *Philosophical / Religious* Belief reflects a real transcendent source<br>
>>><br>
>>> These explanations *don\u2019t cancel each other out* \u2014 they can overlap.<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> \U0001f54a\ufe0f A Thought Many Find Compelling<br>
>>><br>
>>> C.S. Lewis put it this way:<br>
>>><br>
>>> /\u201cIf I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.\u201d/<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> \U0001f9e0 Bottom Line<br>
>>><br>
>>> People across cultures believe in God and an afterlife because:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> humans universally seek meaning<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> love, justice, and beauty feel ultimate<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> death feels wrong, not natural<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> conscience feels real, not invented<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> transcendence is repeatedly experienced<br>
>>><br>
>>> Different religions may be *human responses* to something real \u2014 or, as believers hold, *partial glimpses of a greater truth*.<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>><br>
>>> If you\u2019d like, I can explore this next from:<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> a *purely scientific viewpoint*<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> a *Christian philosophical argument*<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> a *skeptical critique*<br>
>>><br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>> or how *modern atheists respond* to this question<br>
>>><br>
>>> Just tell me which angle you want.<br>
-- <br>
ˇs\u0131\u0279\u018e \u05df\u0131\u0250H \u22a5 \u0250\u05df\u05df\u01dddo\u0279 \u01dd u\u01dd\u05df\u0183<br>
\u1f45\u03c4\u03b5 oi \u03bc\u1f72\u03bd \u1f04\u03bb\u03bb\u03bf\u03b9 \u03ba\u03cd\u03bd\u03b5\u03c2 \u03c4\u03bf\u1f7a\u03c2 \u1f10\u03c7\u03d1\u03c1\u03bf\u1f7a\u03c2 \u03b4\u03ac\u03ba\u03bd\u03bf\u03c5\u03c3\u03b9\u03bd, \u1f10\u03b3\u1f70 \u03b4\u1f72 \u03c4\u03bf\u1f7a\u03c2 \u03c6\u03af\u03bb\u03bf\u03c5\u03c2, \u1f35\u03bd\u03b1 \u03c3\u03ce\u03c3\u03c9.<br>
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