<div dir="auto"><div>Fascinating. Thanks, Eric.</div><div><br></div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 5, 2026, 6:11\u202fPM Santafe <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu">desmith@santafe.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="line-break:after-white-space">General direction is okay, Frank, but what you have below needs to be modulated a bit to align with what workers are actually doing.<div><br></div><div>I answer you here only because your reply isn\u2019t in the middle of any agenda that needs defending, and because of my infinitely irritating need to align things. Just for future reference, for the next time somebody cites you. </div><div><br></div><div>Fitness, as the statisticians following Fisher (and then Price) define it, is an extracted part of the total contribution to change in the distributions of just-whatever-features in a population state, which refers (by the convention people use) to comparable stages in successive \u201cgenerations\u201d (constructed however that needs to be for the given population-dynamic in question; there is a combinatorium of variants).</div><div><br></div><div>Surviving to reproduce, and then reproducing, both have to occur within that window (a \u201cgeneration\u201d), and both can have structure. Moreover, the sources of differentiation can be distinct as they are expressed in survival and as they are expressed in offspring-production. Geneticists (but I assume, evolutionary biologists more generally), refer to the two groups of effects, respectively, as \u201cmortality selection\u201d and \u201cfecundity selection\u201d. So even as only-one element in the contribution to population-state change, \u201cfitness\u201d still subsumes multiple distinct sources, and does not refer only to survival. If we used a richer set of summary statistics than fitness to capture selection, there would be more refined sub-effects than these two that we could separate. That is entirely doable, but is not part of conventional practice.</div><div><br></div><div>I think Ewens and Lessard contain usage of this standard form, for the garden-variety minimal models, to give you a sense that it is long-established and very conventional:</div><div><div style="display:block"><div style="display:inline-block" role="link"><a style="border-radius:10px;font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;display:block;width:300px;overflow:hidden;text-decoration:none" rel="nofollow noreferrer" href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26220589/" dir="ltr" role="button" width="300" target="_blank"><table style="table-layout:fixed;border-collapse:collapse;width:300px;background-color:#787b80;font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="300"><tbody><tr><td><table bgcolor="#787B80" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="300" style="table-layout:fixed;font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgba(120,123,128,1)"><tbody><tr><td style="padding:8px 0px 8px 0px"><div style="max-width:100%;margin:0px 16px 0px 16px;overflow:hidden"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;font-weight:500;font-size:12px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a rel="nofollow noreferrer" href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26220589/" style="text-decoration:none" target="_blank"><font color="#FFFFFF" style="color:rgba(255,255,255,0.847059)">Checking your browser - reCAPTCHA</font></a></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word;font-weight:400;font-size:11px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a rel="nofollow noreferrer" href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26220589/" style="text-decoration:none" target="_blank"><font color="#FFFFFF" style="color:rgba(255,255,255,0.54902)">nlm.nih.gov</font></a></div></div></td><td style="padding:6px 12px 6px 0px" width="30"><a rel="nofollow noreferrer" href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26220589/" target="_blank"><img style="display:inline-block;width:30px;height:30px;border-radius:3px" width="30" height="30" alt="apple-touch-icon-precomposed.png" src="cid:EFA0B820-417E-45B6-89DA-352795973ADE"></a></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></a></div></div><div>If not in exactly this paper, then maybe in Ewens\u2019s other stuff in this same thread of his \u2014 e.g. </div><div><div style="display:block"><div style="display:inline-block" role="link"><a style="border-radius:10px;font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;display:block;width:228px;overflow:hidden;text-decoration:none" rel="nofollow noreferrer" href="https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1093/bjps/axq005" dir="ltr" role="button" width="228" target="_blank"><table style="table-layout:fixed;border-collapse:collapse;width:228px;background-color:#a48a41;font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="228"><tbody><tr><td align="center"><img style="width:228px;height:340px" width="228" height="340" alt="cover.png" src="cid:D03735B7-BB44-4767-B161-B64DCFA4C54D"></td></tr><tr><td><table bgcolor="#A48A41" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="228" style="table-layout:fixed;font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgba(164,138,65,1)"><tbody><tr><td style="padding:8px 0px 8px 0px"><div style="max-width:100%;margin:0px 16px 0px 16px;overflow:hidden"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;font-weight:500;font-size:12px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a rel="nofollow noreferrer" href="https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1093/bjps/axq005" style="text-decoration:none" target="_blank"><font color="#FFFFFF" style="color:rgba(255,255,255,0.847059)">What is the Gene Trying to Do? | The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science: Vol 62, No 1</font></a></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word;font-weight:400;font-size:11px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a rel="nofollow noreferrer" href="https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1093/bjps/axq005" style="text-decoration:none" target="_blank"><font color="#FFFFFF" style="color:rgba(255,255,255,0.54902)">journals.uchicago.edu</font></a></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></a></div></div>or in his big yellow standard textbook:</div><div><div style="display:block"><div style="display:inline-block" role="link"><a style="border-radius:10px;font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;display:block;width:228px;overflow:hidden;text-decoration:none" rel="nofollow noreferrer" href="https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-0-387-21822-9" dir="ltr" role="button" width="228" target="_blank"><table style="table-layout:fixed;border-collapse:collapse;width:228px;background-color:#d4ce49;font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="228"><tbody><tr><td align="center"><img style="width:228px;height:345px" width="228" height="345" alt="978-0-387-21822-9.jpg" src="cid:24392D45-2F03-4DFE-BEBC-F648D4137377"></td></tr><tr><td><table bgcolor="#D4CE49" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="228" style="table-layout:fixed;font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgba(212,206,73,1)"><tbody><tr><td style="padding:8px 0px 8px 0px"><div style="max-width:100%;margin:0px 16px 0px 16px;overflow:hidden"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;font-weight:500;font-size:12px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a rel="nofollow noreferrer" href="https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-0-387-21822-9" style="text-decoration:none" target="_blank"><font color="#272727" style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.847059)">Mathematical Population Genetics 1</font></a></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word;font-weight:400;font-size:11px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left"><a rel="nofollow noreferrer" href="https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-0-387-21822-9" style="text-decoration:none" target="_blank"><font color="#808080" style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.498039)">link.springer.com</font></a></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></a></div></div><br></div><div>All best, and sorry to be tedious, </div><div><br></div><div>Eric</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div></div><br id="m_1850594854783762413lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Apr 2, 2026, at 3:50, Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><div>I thought fitness was a measure of the likelihood of survival in a given environment. Hence fitness together with the capacity and drive to reproduce would determine the continuation of a species. But I'm no biologist. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Frank</div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g">140 Calle Ojo Feliz, </a><br><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g">Santa Fe, NM 87505</a><br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 1, 2026, 5:15\u202fAM Santafe <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">desmith@santafe.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="line-break:after-white-space">Can I ask one last question? after which I promise I really will shut up:<div><br></div><div>The content of EricC\u2019s note below (about the key in a lock), reflecting back on things Nick said in the early posts about selection\u2019s being a tautology, which got me started digging a hole, have bothered me through the night, and made me wonder if I can understand how I have been missing both-of-y\u2019all\u2019s point. Was it something like the following:?</div><div><br></div><div>\u2014 for me, \u201cfitness\u201d is a name given to (something like) the units (or dimension) in which reproductive success is measured, or quantified. Not sure \u201cunits\u201d is quite the right term, but the point is that it\u2019s about defining a quantification program for observed outcomes, or the model variables that we try to fit to them. I had taken the state of modern work to show that this is the only actual meaning the term was ever given.</div><div><br></div><div>\u2014 are you two claiming otherwise; that my supposition is not at all the case? That there are biologists for whom there is some other meaning, instead of or in addition to the one I gave above, about being a measurement unit? Something like: \u201cfitness\u201d is a name for \u201cthe cause of reproductive success\u201d. As if to say: Well, there\u2019s this thing with the form of a name, so there must be something it names, that is a kind of causal force responsible for generating what we witness as reproductive success. And since there is one name, there must be some one kind of causal force it names.</div><div><br></div><div>\u2014 to me, an interpretation like that is so bizarre, it would never have occurred to me to that there is anyone making it. It seems very similar to taking an expression like \u201celan vital\u201d, and saying that, since it has the shape of a name, there must be something it names. To me, those are strings of words that satisfy rules of syntax and that don\u2019t have any semantic referents at all. They may as well be Chomsky\u2019s \u201ccolorless green dreams\u201d or something. I would not have imagined that there was anything anyone expected, beyond the working out of the mechanics of lots of cases of how-lifecycles-play-out-in-contexts, which can fill out some vast taxonomy that has no singular \u201cessence\u201d underneath it. That could well be my lack of empathy for how many other people think, like my lack of empathy for their thoughts about God (along with my ignorance about who is in the world). </div><div><br></div><div>\u2014 I guess, since there are people who continue to talk about Strong Emergence, and Philosophical Zombies, and who sound to me much like people who talk about God today, and maybe like people who would have talked about Elan Vital some generations ago, I should have right away imagined this reading of what you were writing.</div><div><br></div><div>If the above is what you were claiming, it would explain why my long Emily Litella-like replies seemed like a tiresome recital of what population geneticists already do (Nick\u2019s point that \u201call that would be left is EricS\u2019s 2a and 2b\u201d), which everybody already knows anyway, and which isn\u2019t interesting and wasn\u2019t to your point.</div><div><br></div><div>So, were you claiming that there are biologists operating that way?</div><div><br></div><div>And are there really biologists operating that way? </div><div><br></div><div>As always, I appreciate whatever patience or indulgence, </div><div><br></div><div>Eric</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br id="m_1850594854783762413m_-593520251906966052m_7475212810926749896lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 31, 2026, at 15:47, Eric Charles <<a href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><div>I'm a bit confused here... </div><div>The initial dog pile on Nick seemed (to me) to have as one of its main points something like "Look, old man, once you formalize something mathematically we don't need to care what any of the words might mean or imply in any other context, it is just math, stop thinking that the words matter!" </div><div><br></div><div>And now there have been several posts by EricS, at least one by Glen, and I think Marcus and Frank are in there somewhere as well, claiming that the words are crucially important and we need to take them much more seriously. </div><div><br></div><div>So.... where does that leave us? Is everyone now onboard with the metaphors mattering quite a bit? </div><div><br></div><div>I'll also note that "function" can't do the work on its own to explain evolution. We still need to know why some functions are favored by selection and others are not. EricS seemed to indicate that we assess "fit" by determining if animals are "happy".... but the metaphor of "fit" is like a key in a lock. To explain evolution you need the matching of form-and-function-to-a-particular-environment. That matching *sometimes* increases reproductive success, and *sometimes* the traits in question are hereditary. </div><div><br></div><div>Population genetics combined with field research can be very powerful along those lines, but the math of population genetics on its own, floating out in the ether, can't do it at all. </div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Best,<br>Eric<br><br><br></span><div></div></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="mailto:echarles@american.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 31, 2026 at 6:10\u202fAM Santafe <<a href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">desmith@santafe.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Nick,<br>
<br>
Two smaller replies to what have become two sub-threads:<br>
<br>
> On Mar 30, 2026, at 15:42, Nicholas Thompson <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> DES, EPC, FW<br>
> <br>
> So far as I understand, the argument flowing from Fisher makes no claims about the kind of trait that produces reproductive success other than that it is the kind that produces reproductive success. FW, if that's not a tautology, it's a pretty tight circle. <br>
<br>
As usual, let\u2019s decamp to more neutral ground in the hope of having an ordinary negotiation.<br>
<br>
Suppose that, in your overweening pursuit of the study of metaphor, you never noticed that there is a once/4-year gathering called The Olympics. Also never learned what any of its so-called \u201cevents\u201d are, what they are about, how they work, and how one differs from another. My hypothetical here is meant to define a condition of having \u201cvery little prior information\u201d about some phenomenon that we can, nonetheless, still reasonably unambiguously circumscribe.<br>
<br>
But a quick inspection shows that a subset of the participants (who all together seem to be called \u201cathletes\u201d) are given metal disks and stand on some kind of 3-tiered podium, while other athletes do not. Being a statistician \u2014 a skill so helpful in the study of metaphor that it was worth taking the time out to learn \u2014 you immediately recognize that this is a kind of marking that can be used to partition the athletes. Taking notice, for the first time, of some of the conversation in the society around you, who seem not nearly so devoted to metaphor and thus have time to do other things, you gather that these marked people seem to be called \u201cwinners\u201d (or better, \u201cmedalists\u201d, this \u201cwinning\u201d thing is a finer sub-partition; I\u2019ll mis-use \u201cwinner\u201d to label the most salient marking for this little parable). It\u2019s handy to have such a term, for use in later sentences, so they become less tedious than the ones I have been typing so far. <br>
<br>
You also note that while there is only one 3-tiered podium and metal-disk set per one \u201cevent\u201d, there seem to be many such distinct \u201cevents\u201d, so some kind of event name gives you a second kind of marking you can put on the athletes. Moreover, interestingly, the \u201cevent\u201d label is again a proper partition (or at least seems to be; this one is less cut-and-dried than the observation that everyone carrying a metal disk is not someone not-carrying a metal disk, so we are wary; the event label seems to be a bit more abstract): every athlete is in some \u201cevent\u201d set, and it appears that no athlete is in more than one of them. As with the \u201cwinners\u201d label, you learn that there are conventionalized names for the events, and you can find a look-up table if you need one or another of them. <br>
<br>
Now, I can make a list of statements that seem to be of two different kinds (scare quotes here indicate my statisticians\u2019 attribute labels; in my condition of very little prior knowledge, I don\u2019t claim I have any more semantics for them than I listed above):<br>
<br>
1. Every \u201cwinner" is someone marked as having won something.<br>
<br>
2a. Every winner in the \u201cgymnastics\u201d event is shorter than the average over all the participants;<br>
<br>
2b. Every winner in the \u201chigh jump\u201d event is taller than the average over all the participants; <br>
<br>
\u2026 (we could presumably look for other such summary statistics that seem to be unusually regular and to carry different values in different \u201cevents\u201d).<br>
<br>
I would say sentence 1 is \u201ca tautology\u201d, or close enough to it for the purpose of this negotiation. Maybe I should use EricC\u2019s good, and slighly more flexible term, \u201ctruism\u201d.<br>
<br>
Now you may write a protest email: But the sentences 2a, 2b, have not told me what constitutes \u201ccompetition\u201d in these \u201cevents\u201d: \u201cgymnastics\u201d and \u201chigh jump\u201d, and given me the rule book for scoring them. Okay. And they didn\u2019t cook your dinner and do the dishes afterward either. Life is hard. And more a propos (breaking my little 4th wall here), the path to a fully-adequate \u201ccausal\u201d theory through statistical inference is like the Road to Heaven: narrow, tortuous, and inadequate to many things one can rightly want to know. That\u2019s what other sciences are then for. <br>
<br>
But if you claim: The sentences 2a and 2b didn\u2019t give me _any information_ about these \u201cevents\u201d, and couldn\u2019t have, because they are tautologies, I would say you made an error. Of course, the real Nick would not say that, so we are all safe.<br>
<br>
The above parable is, of course, about selection. I didn\u2019t say anything about heredity. But if I had happened to note that height is a fairly heritable trait, I could have spun out a much longer story, and defined some Bayesian-posterior conditional probabilities, which would be shown to have properties such as: the posterior probability, under various ceteris paribus conditions, for a child of a high-jump winner to turn out another high-jump winner is higher than for that child to turn out a gymnastics winner, and so forth. The amalgamation of both of those stories would go in the direction of Fisher\u2019s fundamental theorem. It would leave out all the stuff that Fisher left out of emphasis in his mad pursuit of his covariance term as an analog to the thermodynamic 2nd law (a non-valid analogy, as it turns out to be easy to show), and that Price included didactically (and here, to EricC\u2019s answer): that I didn\u2019t even mention that the tall people might get drafted into wars and put into an infantry to fire rifles over tall dijks, while the short people might be drafted into Special Forces and sent on missions to attack through underground tunnels, and so the number of survivors could depend on many factors about which war their country had started, in what theater, and against what opposition, etc. These are the world of everything-else that Fisher lumped together into \u201cdeterioration of the environment\u201d, as Steve Frank (and I think also Price) lays out. They are probably not well-analogized to \u201cmutation\u201d, but in genetics, mutation also goes into the same bin in the Price equation \u2014 _outside_ the term of Fisher\u2019s fundamental theorem \u2014 as the \u201cdeterioration\u201d effects. The accounting identity is flexible enough that we don\u2019t need analogies to use it; we can formulate a version for whatever statistics our phenomenon-of-interest supplies.<br>
<br>
Anyway; at issue: Seriously, do we have a problem in scientific work, of people being unable to gain partial knowledge about phenomena through sentences of the kinds 2a, 2b, because they can\u2019t tell the difference between those and sentence 1? In the world where I live, I don\u2019t see evidence for this mistake.<br>
<br>
Eric<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,GvQhgG8mgl44zu_Tqszk_wQFcC3LBswQyBsmnoa7umwcI4cM2jGPGmAYotJwNMri0nXMbYayX6uZw5iDa5Mn0zM5Lzi9_LPGwP2Q6dG2zkm1Zw,,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,23DEBEu6zm1j58j5JsswXw4R4hnyuhIceP4fdD1lMWDKru8V9CE3qD4-RYjtV5Jy9hfTf9uHOrhrlBi_RdYMT7jsteJtGiX2nEMNJisxFedZstuD_29M3FA,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,Ec4s1UwqPKENLyqkHX4Ib_R7EzxFYgc2j7jZdKdzIhORPykt1347aKvaSNnoCQ4Arvb6m2_GLwAwKSl29d-U5DrlMczDc4AHiyyrX-KaGBCrMK9RdKapkw,,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,wWOjZ0Q8WKeZG4U9_UBc_a11JtFDvedQPCTS8FL1Usmbm4F-EJO5IWv_Ignpmf4vTC3CO23cIKVFR_FtMZC8DWD4hyxlN0c7hdOfez8KEw,,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,kwN2JIDPqIj9UxOfed-aORUfsTjJO1DufRCI0ppHAlXiormfdNykgyPSWLfGlw5BiruUeiaRfbSG8W1tubwpfhSXeau4oRt3nvXTRhaRUQDZn1ezcoU,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,kwN2JIDPqIj9UxOfed-aORUfsTjJO1DufRCI0ppHAlXiormfdNykgyPSWLfGlw5BiruUeiaRfbSG8W1tubwpfhSXeau4oRt3nvXTRhaRUQDZn1ezcoU,&typo=1</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,kQqYu7I-SVHGT_AjFnLh-XWpOng69axviT6aY8I-XQhC5yk80tH2Ke3qOfyvs8l3RCZeAkeZoIR8TnddaWkwLAXTuoc5QvUR8RvkfEpSQA4,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,kQqYu7I-SVHGT_AjFnLh-XWpOng69axviT6aY8I-XQhC5yk80tH2Ke3qOfyvs8l3RCZeAkeZoIR8TnddaWkwLAXTuoc5QvUR8RvkfEpSQA4,&typo=1</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,Scpn5Z6qKVVYYNEU1u9CRDlFHpw1wgOZOdNM_lN_6PGv3Act07AQi7IpeyFshe33FmWkTI9CAG8DxLRlNRkf96ox2bRdyp5XC_cgCr8eGG_qVIaFKTZQtQ,,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,Scpn5Z6qKVVYYNEU1u9CRDlFHpw1wgOZOdNM_lN_6PGv3Act07AQi7IpeyFshe33FmWkTI9CAG8DxLRlNRkf96ox2bRdyp5XC_cgCr8eGG_qVIaFKTZQtQ,,&typo=1</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,NLxA-XaYLw7kDphTWfVR6urQXoJSKIwq0etxJd8ER-oc2b18abBXo9Qeee2OhAh_25GSqFBFw3JCMtIdxzYZ2dNpnjUjp4hMFRrpN814z2HxmIPhG0rfxUF-CQ,,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,NLxA-XaYLw7kDphTWfVR6urQXoJSKIwq0etxJd8ER-oc2b18abBXo9Qeee2OhAh_25GSqFBFw3JCMtIdxzYZ2dNpnjUjp4hMFRrpN814z2HxmIPhG0rfxUF-CQ,,&typo=1</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,vO4D1Yr7xr-GdgCptbtGTdYrJkBXpQHZDI6t49T-ZqZshr6uK1Egp-cntmU1ugCPCcOjK2E98wy73Kh8aCFLUzMDertLbrI3SOU_3JxNr5OuJoCa&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,9pHB_NpjN1TBW-ymB9qchXPWOjegNvkVwY6PF3Yg2iJ3EqxY72McaZ-Gbq9ZurAm0QvJptOdi_48uBF68I2yPM4fbLJS-Z9tMa_0pZocjQCM&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,603jkQ4zdhdQAwUsIRb299PkxPZJ3k2qL_r6V-or16OCqAV12FYSe0vM0ETBwD4ujrtB0-J9zYLIHkfpjuy8ahfs3pMyMTCzBJtstaBHMcZaUOc,&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,C26WdHS2iJTyHc1uBqSwJt6bGhWUPgLI0Fr7HZxmS9LrkUdngQKQ1pg3NtIeNOOi4nQXWOWwkQLHIHgCPH8J18z5p9BdLIgccQVHQUxbazzs&typo=1" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
<br><br></div>
.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,DKYv0Feg1PrqUJcABWkxa-jtzyNCfEPPqagYLqv9L5-2EiGa-ReHb2pj5wgxKxCPVAhZ4EsYr1dNArsnmp4HDAGH5h7FBvcBFB7DcVo8auZPUw,,&typo=1" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,DKYv0Feg1PrqUJcABWkxa-jtzyNCfEPPqagYLqv9L5-2EiGa-ReHb2pj5wgxKxCPVAhZ4EsYr1dNArsnmp4HDAGH5h7FBvcBFB7DcVo8auZPUw,,&typo=1</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,B8DonLKAUG_Io1UXEBPZ4wZ10yr5EqlR8Uft6hm0XWPSslm4RYzFo3TH_8pC3DqW_AqnLsLxKSHZYnuI_4DJ13_k8toCin-GE09vvhr67ppYCdJKdqKYZwk,&typo=1" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,B8DonLKAUG_Io1UXEBPZ4wZ10yr5EqlR8Uft6hm0XWPSslm4RYzFo3TH_8pC3DqW_AqnLsLxKSHZYnuI_4DJ13_k8toCin-GE09vvhr67ppYCdJKdqKYZwk,&typo=1</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,SQ53RGMmZIk4d56i4GNY9SzOOiqOSBXE0XBGVECbZrEcu6bTtObMdjEIqkUKgrIroqlYdokY7sZP30rBMKooj_BElrz7DbE5iZlamBxl5kpy&typo=1" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,SQ53RGMmZIk4d56i4GNY9SzOOiqOSBXE0XBGVECbZrEcu6bTtObMdjEIqkUKgrIroqlYdokY7sZP30rBMKooj_BElrz7DbE5iZlamBxl5kpy&typo=1</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,3eTEVfl6OtHuBy9TM3Q-bpr6kmFYufFqqjU60sxYmbH-OWYwxj1hITG0s9WekRsVfpjZ3cLeNDgekWTR6or91grDv0KRyZXGhPlMOGdGbcxdYw-xvUpnkkg4&typo=1" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,3eTEVfl6OtHuBy9TM3Q-bpr6kmFYufFqqjU60sxYmbH-OWYwxj1hITG0s9WekRsVfpjZ3cLeNDgekWTR6or91grDv0KRyZXGhPlMOGdGbcxdYw-xvUpnkkg4&typo=1</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>
archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br>
1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><br>
</blockquote></div>