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<p class="MsoNormal">I would agree that there is a strange rationalization process by people like Brooks.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Few in leadership positions in the industry openly talk about the distillation of humanity and evolution of intelligent life.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 21, 2026 9:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] IT software dev / coding<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">For what it might be worth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I posted the Zack Cass questions and channeled his \u201cshould\u201d because I found them to be a bit ironic. Unfortunately, I did not include enough background for others to see the irony.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Cass is an unabashed advocate of AI and is certain that AI will bring about a new renaissance, derived from \u201cunlimited intelligence.\u201d His main argument: with AI taking over all the mundane drudgery
of human work, people will be able to devote time an energy to creativity, social relations (definition of happiness), and deep thinking.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">He echoes other Anthropic executives in predicting that thousands of jobs in accounting, middle management, entry-level, bureaucracy, and IT will be displaced by AI, leading to a 10-20% unemployment
rate within five years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">He thinks this is a good idea because AI
<b><i><u>should</u></i></b> be doing those jobs, not people.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Humans will then be free to do all the creative and philosophical stuff.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">What I found ironic, is his seeming obliviousness to the qualities that people will need to possess in order to accomplish all those wondrous, new renaissance, kinds of stuff. Also, like a lot
of AI advocates, he does seem to think that AGI and super intelligence will be able to supersede human abilities in the near future\u2014a seeming, to me, contradiction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Cass does present a theme, somewhat like Steve Smith, that too much work and too many workers have been, de facto, automated already. Steve used the term \u201ccommoditized.\u201d In that context, which
in the case of IT, I totally agree with the use of the word should.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Just my opinion as a someone who has been in the \u2018profession\u2019 since 1968, the same year that software engineering was posited as a profession and academic discipline, the \u201cmechanization\u201d of people
has been and is a dominant goal. Method, CASE, Model-driven design, \u201cintelligent software assistants (1990s), and now AI would be my \u201cevidence.\u201d When I first entered the profession, we were "wizards;" now we are merely imperfect engineers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Back to the irony; David Brooks wrote a NYT op ed with the title, \u201cIn the Age of AI: Major in Being Human.\u201d Cass seems to think that being human is a given while Brooks is saying it must be pursued
and nurtured.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Of course, there is no such thing as a major in \u201cbeing human.\u201d <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On Mon, Apr 20, 2026, at 1:19 PM, glen wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> That language makes my brain hurt. But IIUC, I have a few nits to pick, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> in order of their priority:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> 1. It isn't Dave's "should", not really. Dave was attempting to pump <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> the computation set up by Kass, playing along with it and its <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> implications. Even if Dave dislikes what's become of software <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> develop[ment|ers], he explicitly disagrees with Kass' setup. The <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> important point of this nit is one's ability to *play along* with <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> another's little game. That ability is important to game selection ... <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> i.e. if we don't like what *is*, what games are available to move from <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> what is to what should be?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> 2. You list 3 systems: systemic metabolism, distributed cognition, and <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> meaning. I presume meaning should have some prefix like systemic and <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> distributed, indicating it's higher order than the individuals who <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> actually _have_ the identity, [in]dignity, narrating, etc. What I'm <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> lacking in parsing these weird words is how each of the 3 differ or <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> overlap, how they relate. How can one use a word like "cognition" <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> without implying a fairly tight relationship to "meaning"? And if <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> that's the case (that there is a tight relationship), how can Kass-Dave <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> be super-imposing metabolism over meaning without doing the same to <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> cognition?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> 3. I don't think it's reasonable to use "phase transition" without some <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> clear concept of "phase". What was the phase before the GPT? ... or <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> even before the "financialize everything" of polymarket/kalshi? ... or <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> whatever transition you find most amenable to description in these <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> weird words?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> On 4/20/26 10:05 AM, Steve Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> In the spirit of alien-thinking:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> Norbert Weiner (1950) sed: /When we use humans as components in a machine\u2014reducing them to repetitive, protocol-bound roles\u2014we \u201cchain a man to a thwart,\u201d turning him into an inferior machine.
/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> Commodification and automation are dual /operations/ that reorganize the relationship between affordances and competencies across a (heterarchical) system (of systems).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> In this case there are two (or more) systems superposed: The /systemic metabolism/ attempting to extract work and redistribute resources and the /"distributed cognition/" system (cultural
norms, government regulations, religious unctions) attempting to organize elements to effect that extraction/redistribution?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> We are in (yet another) phase transition where formerly innovative/creative processes have become commodified to the point that they can be automated, which is part of a cascade of "yet more"
commodification and automation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> A third (and most salient to well adjusted human biengs and other sentients perhaps?) is that of meaning whose objective is to justify and stabilize participation through stablized idnetity,
dignity narrative, ethics, using ideas like purpose fairness, value and "shoulds".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> To summarize: Dave's "should" seems to superpose the logic of the /metabolism/ (should automate to optimize efficiency) and the /meaning/ realm with something like "everyone would be happier
and more well adjusted" if they were to give over to this commodification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> On 4/20/26 9:16 am, glen wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> There's a reading of Dave's OP not considered in this thread. He used the word "should": "several hundred thousand developers/software engineers should be replaced with AI and automated out
of existence". Of course, there is a usage of "should" that's more of a prediction than a moral imperative. E.g. "We expect several hundred ...". But I didn't read it that way. I read Kass' 5 questions ([mis]informed or not) as an ethical stance. And Dave
extended it to imply that those developers *should* be obsoleted, according to Kass' ethic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> Granted, many others are being obsoleted. But should they? Should they according to Kass' ethic? Something else like the one I forwarded? Does everyone have their own persnickety set of rules?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> A practical (though perhaps cynical or even nihilist) approach is to [in|ab]ductively arrive at what *should* happen based on what *is* happening, rather than stumbling into axioms of occult
provenance. How and when to map is-should is the fundamental question, much more important than whichever individual rules might be adopted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>> On 4/20/26 7:53 AM, cody dooderson wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> I agree with Marcus. It is not just software developers that are getting replaced by AI. Book writers, musicians, lawyers and many other professions are seeing competition from AI.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> This article about an AI author just showed up on Hacker news, <a href="https://theamericanscholar.org/who-is-blake-whiting/">https://theamericanscholar.org/who-is-blake-whiting/</a> <<a href="https://theamericanscholar.org/who-is-blake-whiting/">https://theamericanscholar.org/who-is-blake-whiting/</a>>
. Apparently the books get very good reviews, but the author doesn't actually exist.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> I would speculate that almost any desk jockey profession is at risk.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> _ Cody Smith _<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> <a href="mailto:d00d3rs0n@gmail.com">d00d3rs0n@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:d00d3rs0n@gmail.com">d00d3rs0n@gmail.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2026 at 4:27\u202fPM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> Dave writes:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> < It seems to me, based on fifty years working in business IT development,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> that several hundred thousand developers/software engineers should be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> replaced with AI and automated out of existence. ><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> It's a growing list, and where it is weak, it mostly just a question of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> getting the token expenditure high enough while providing tools and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> grounding / embodiment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> For sysadmin work, the main obstacle is having (something like) hands to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> open boxes, power cycle, and that sort of thing. The other day Claude Code<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> set up a multi-architecture Kerberos server for me with NFSv4.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> Traditional software development is mostly done IMO.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> Also, building architecture is done. Claude Opus is surprisingly skilled<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>>>> at building plans. That will only accelerate IMO. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> -- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> ¡s\u0131\u0279\u018e \u05df\u0131\u0250H </span>
<span style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif">\u22a5</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> \u0250\u05df\u05df\u01dddo\u0279 \u01dd u\u01dd\u05df\u0183<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> \u1f45\u03c4\u03b5 oi \u03bc\u1f72\u03bd \u1f04\u03bb\u03bb\u03bf\u03b9 \u03ba\u03cd\u03bd\u03b5\u03c2 \u03c4\u03bf\u1f7a\u03c2 \u1f10\u03c7\u03d1\u03c1\u03bf\u1f7a\u03c2 \u03b4\u03ac\u03ba\u03bd\u03bf\u03c5\u03c3\u03b9\u03bd, \u1f10\u03b3\u1f70 \u03b4\u1f72 \u03c4\u03bf\u1f7a\u03c2 \u03c6\u03af\u03bb\u03bf\u03c5\u03c2, \u1f35\u03bd\u03b1 \u03c3\u03ce\u03c3\u03c9.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com</a>/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> archives: 5/2017 thru present <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com</a>/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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