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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>It\u2019s why languages like Lean 4 are popular now for AI: Make the AI prove correctness. It may fail, but then one knows not to use that code. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Gillian Densmore<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 12, 2026 3:35 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] What is FRIAM and is it still alive<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>vibe coding is as gamers used to say for l4m3rz: did ya' ebay yourself: subtle logic problems or even just not real coode with a tone of emoji's slips in. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>_worse_is when its tokens or something happens it's not quite true hallucination, but pretty close, or just wrong. A minor example: I know a little about Kava. and depending chatgpt temperature rating the answers can be: sort of right. or just wrong and occasional dangerous. For example I'm almost 50 and that's about when it's a little dicy in the us to have kava without getting boring rambling:its because it inclue arial bits and leaves stuff that isn't all that great anyway and super hard on your liver. Well Sometimes chagpt says that is fine. (oops)That is a problem for coding. The code (to me) might look good: but Steve or Josh might look and be horrified at: anything from not well formatted to logic bombs or national obfuscation etc. that's why asking ChatGPT to code for you is bad. and it's called "vibecoding" <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Just imagine me navely thinking i'm helping because I found a bug in cool_code_here. and I go oh hey I kind of reconise this problem then ask clause or grok etc. and--what happens if: to me, it looks like a reasonable patch or whatever: but to someone who actually Knows that programing language: it's just terrible. that's the huge problem with vibecoded stuff getting into the wild.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Aug 12, 2026 at 4:26<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>\u202f</span>PM Owen Densmore <<a href="mailto:owen@backspaces.net">owen@backspaces.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I just did the same stunt with chatgpt. It's output was:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>This site is a public web archive of the <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>FRIAM email discussion list</span></strong>. It displays messages grouped into conversational threads, with links to older posts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>The community appears to be centered around Santa Fe and brings together people interested in science, technology, mathematics, philosophy, and complex systems. Recent discussions include:<o:p></o:p></span></p><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Artificial intelligence, cognitive offloading, semantic networks, and \u201cvibe coding\u201d<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Software development, Linux, and technical troubleshooting<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Mathematics and research, including solutions to \(A^4+B^4+C^4=D^4\)<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Philosophy, agency, reasoning, and scientific criticism<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Synthetic life, geology, archaeology, electric vehicles, and space exploration<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Local Santa Fe meetups, especially gatherings at St. John\u2019s or nearby cafés<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Community announcements, obituaries, shared articles, and informal conversation<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>The tone is eclectic and conversational: serious technical or philosophical debate sits alongside local coordination, jokes, provocative subject lines, and requests for help. A relatively small group of recurring contributors produces much of the activity, often through long reply chains.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>In short, it\u2019s less a conventional informational website than a browsable record of an active intellectual community\u2019s mailing-list conversations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Aug 12, 2026 at 3:41<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>\u202f</span>PM Owen Densmore <<a href="mailto:owen@backspaces.net" target="_blank">owen@backspaces.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I just looked at our archive here: <o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0in;border-color:currentcolor'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/friam@redfish.com/index.html" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/friam@redfish.com/index.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I then used the chrome claude extension and asked a simple prompt:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0in;border-color:currentcolor'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>give me a summary of this site<o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>It came up with:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0in;border-color:currentcolor'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222'>This page is the Mail Archive's index for the <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>FRIAM</span></strong> mailing list (</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a></span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222'>), archived at <a href="http://mail-archive.com" target="_blank">mail-archive.com</a>.</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0in;border-color:currentcolor'><p>FRIAM stands for "Friday Applications in Complexity," a long-running discussion group/mailing list associated with people connected to the Santa Fe Institute and Santa Fe, New Mexico complexity science community. The archive displays messages organized by thread, showing a chronological/threaded index of email conversations rather than any original content of its own.<o:p></o:p></p><p>Looking at the thread titles, the list is an informal, freewheeling discussion forum where members debate a wide mix of topics: philosophy of mind (e.g. "phil zombies," "group agency"), math puzzles (several threads on the equation A\u2074+B\u2074+C\u2074=D\u2074), AI and technology commentary ("vibe coding," "AI Slop," "cognitive offloading"), software/Linux questions, local Santa Fe meetup logistics (coffee shop and venue announcements like "St John's" or "New Santa Fe Baking"), obituaries and memorials for community members, and general banter among a recurring group of participants such as glen, Marcus Daniels, Steve Smith, Tom Johnson, Frank Wimberly, and others.<o:p></o:p></p><p>In short, it's a public email archive of a niche, long-running community mailing list mixing casual meetup coordination with intellectual discussion on complexity science, AI, math, and philosophy.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Kinda fun sicking AI on our past.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> -- Owen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom <a href="https://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>to (un)subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><br>archives: 5/2017 thru present <a href="https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/" target="_blank">https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/</a><br> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 <a href="http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>