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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>The usual fork in conversation about free will falls into these categories:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>One party is a dualist and so the conversation is doomed. There can be no grounding.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>One party invokes quantum mechanics to say some spooky action at a distance gives the human consciousness special powers. Penrose is a sophisticated version of this. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>One party invokes psychological necessity. That free will must exist or goals would be an illusion and goals are needed to function. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>One party invokes social requirements that there must be responsibility and whatever the natural requirements are of that, we must pretend to believe them because without them there would be chaos.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>There\u2019s the view that science needs independent experiments for there to be science. So, minds must be independent from material. This is a corollary of #1, #3, #4. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>That it is a useful fiction in communication. I would strongly argue that it is not useful and actively destructive to actually understanding how humans behave. People don\u2019t just use free will as a light symbol binding any more than they use belief in God as a light symbol binding for spirituality or placeholder for community and cooperation.<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>That paper addresses #2. QM is a model quantitatively consistent with determinism. That is not a claim about how the universe really is, but it is makes #2 pointless as a tool in argument: In addition to the absence of evidence for Penrose\u2019s theory of consciousness, QM itself isn\u2019t useful for advancing a materialist view of free will, in principle. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Now in the last year or so, there\u2019s strengthening practical evidence that intelligence doesn\u2019t need sustained consciousness at all. It might even be a burden. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>P.S. I did not open my private repo that has the computational bits for that paper. I\u2019ve been getting hit lately with exploits too. I think it is probably the pissed-off Ais. </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"'>😊</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> If anyone would like Lean 4 / Mathematica / Z3 codes I will make a private account or send a tarfile.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> on behalf of glen <gepr@ropella.name><br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, August 20, 2026 at 6:04\u202fAM<br><b>To: </b>friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject: </b>[FRIAM] consent (was Re:New philosophy book)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>I've attempted to stay out of this YAFWD (yet another free will discussion - I wanted to put useless in there ... maybe YAUFWD, easier to pronounce?). But then I struggled through this winded artifact:<br><br><a href="https://3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2026/08/algorithms-before-the-cradle-part-ii.html">https://3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2026/08/algorithms-before-the-cradle-part-ii.html</a><br><br>I couldn't really follow the iterations *from* Jon's concept of openness (my word, I think), even after a few private rounds with Mistral. So I gave up. But reading the Ahmad piece put me smack into my prior *feels* w.r.t. TESCREAL and the SciFi Fanboi fascism we see from the likes of Thiel and Karp (and their K-Hole spelunker buddy Musk).<br><br>Then I'm hit with Marcus' piece on openness. Yes, I tried to read it. I feel stupid for making the effort ... not only do I feel stupid because I don't understand ... like 98% of the words, but also for wasting my time trying to read it ... knowing full well in advance that I will not understand it. ¯\_(</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"'>\u30c4</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>)_/¯<br><br>But such linguistic prestidigitation only cements my concern that it can be ... no *WILL BE* exploited to justify the violation of consent. It already is, I think. There is no free will, so we may as well do whatever dastardly deeds The Algorithm has in store for us. Did I murder a couple dozen people? Help genocide some brown people? Bah! *I* didn't do that. You only *think* I did it.<br><br>And if they did not consent to their genocide, it doesn't matter because there's no such thing as consent.<br><br>Or, if there is such a thing ... whatever object pointed to by that token, it's definitely NOT what you might think it is. Such thoughts make me giggle a bit when I sign the document at the clinic. Do you even know what this document says? What my signature means? Pfft. Our tech and AI overlords have such sights to show you.<br><br>On 8/19/26 2:06 PM, Santafe wrote:<br>> I guess, at the end, for all these real-world cases where choices are hard both to make and to understand or evaluate, does having a tag named \u201cfree will\u201d add something material to our ability to settle where we are in relation to it?<br>-- <br>8647 </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cambria Math",serif'>\u22a5</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> \u0250\u05df\u05df\u01dddo\u0279 \u01dd u\u01dd\u05df\u0183<br>\u1f45\u03c4\u03b5 oi \u03bc\u1f72\u03bd \u1f04\u03bb\u03bb\u03bf\u03b9 \u03ba\u03cd\u03bd\u03b5\u03c2 \u03c4\u03bf\u1f7a\u03c2 \u1f10\u03c7\u03d1\u03c1\u03bf\u1f7a\u03c2 \u03b4\u03ac\u03ba\u03bd\u03bf\u03c5\u03c3\u03b9\u03bd, \u1f10\u03b3\u1f70 \u03b4\u1f72 \u03c4\u03bf\u1f7a\u03c2 \u03c6\u03af\u03bb\u03bf\u03c5\u03c2, \u1f35\u03bd\u03b1 \u03c3\u03ce\u03c3\u03c9.<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>