[FRIAM] causation / evolution

[∄ uǝʃƃ]

Most definitely.  We've gone round and round about the fundamental concepts in autopoiesis on this list several times, albeit mostly in the context of Robert Rosen.  The two conceptions of causal closure are related in that autopoiesis is more constrained than (M,R)-systems.  But the core is the same.

FWIW, we'll be discussing Maturana's comments about how/whether autopoiesis can be applied to social systems this afternoon: http://calagator.org/events/1250472864


On 12/01/2017 07:48 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> If I remember correctly, the last time I attended "the mother church," a
> discussion about causation was a thread in a larger discussion about
> evolution. Later reflection on that discussion led me to revisit the
> work of Maturana and Varela (autopoeisis and structural coupling). 
> Later, in response to West's quasi-tantrum "Truth" discussion on this
> list, I found myself returning to the same source. I am going to present
> a two-day workshop on the design of complex systems (as opposed to the
> design of complicated systems, like software, which is mere engineering)
> and, once again, found myself consulting the Chilean biologists.
> 
> So I am curious as to whether or not others on the list have found the
> work of Maturana and Varela of interest in understanding complex
> systems? Does anyone else see connections to past and present
> (causation, systems, evolution) FRIAM discussions? Am I wandering in the
> deep woods again without a competent guide?
> 
> A brief excerpt of comments by students of M&V is included below,
> perhaps to trigger memories, perhaps to plant seeds.
> 
> dave west
>    
> 
> Maturana-the-biologist was unhappy with enumerating features of living
> systems to define 'life', and wanted to capture the invariant feature of
> living systems around which natural selection operates. He wanted to do
> this in a way that retained the autonomy of living systems as a central
> feature, and hence without recourse to referential concepts like
> 'purpose' or 'function'. 
> 
> Systems are structure determined. That is, anything a system does at any
> moment in time is determined by its structure - its component bits and
> pieces, and the relationships between them. Maturana and Varela are at
> pains to take account of the perspective of the observer when talking of
> systems and how they behave in relation to their environment. The
> behaviour of a system is something ascribed to it by someone observing
> it in interaction with its environment. Hence behaviour is not something
> that is 'in' a system, and to refer to how a system relates to its
> environment whilst trying to understand it as an autonomous entity
> violates that very notion of autonomy. This is why all of the mechanics
> of the process of Autopoiesis as described by Maturana and Varela are
> kept strictly within the bounds of the Autopoietic system. This strict
> requirement is enforced via concepts like 'operational closure' and
> 'organizational closure.'
> 
> The consequences of this perspective are not always obvious. A good
> example however, is the immune system's ability to distinguish between
> self and non-self. Varela has been pointing out for some time that this
> is an observed behaviour, produced by the operational dynamics of the
> immune system in its environment, and that it is wrong to look for some
> discriminatory recognition mechanism within the immune system. Attention
> should be focused on the internal dynamics of the immune system, and how
> this is affected by and affects its environment of operation in such a
> way as to give rise to the behaviour observed. A similar approach is
> taken to the nervous system.
> 
> Autopoietic theory of course recognises that systems exist within
> environments, relate to them, and at low enough material level are
> entirely open to them. 
> 
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