[FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

Thu Jan 12 12:05:43 EST 2017

Grant, 

This is a tremendous letter. Thanks for your thoughts. 

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Grant Holland
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 9:58 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>; ERIC P. CHARLES <epc2 at psu.edu>; jofr at cas-group.net
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

Eric,

It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say "extreme", I mean extreme. 

I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11 year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)

So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political manifestations.

I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's where I was in 2000 when W won.) 

And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like. 

Thanks for listening to me!
Grant

On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:

The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members of the press every day. 

Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest questions. 

Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant, more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities, etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech, which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to the actions of the other individuals mentioned. 

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net <mailto:jofr at cas-group.net> > wrote:

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> > 

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00) 

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> > 

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill? 

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best. 
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...

-- 
☣ glen

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