[FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

Fri Jan 13 21:43:20 EST 2017

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best. 
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...

VIB I missed the rest of Jochen Fromm’s letter but agree whole heartedly.

The universe of a narcissist has a radius close to +1 plus the small consensus it controls. The Solipsist has complete mastery of a Universe of radius absolute 1 plus the deluded 

cohort of imaginary sycophants. The difference between the two is very small. A totally mad narcissist vacillates between the two positions slaughtering all contradictions real or imagined.

If a madman truly believes in himself … than he can commit any atrocity with a clear conscience. I true believer can completely ignore reality.

I was accused of being a pacifist lately when I am anything but that. Sometimes Violence is the only response to madmen and in such a case, hesitation is folly.

I was raised by survivors of The Great Slaughter in Eastern Europe, they taught me to fight and how to kill because they feared it’s return. Not in my life time was I ever called upon…

thank God. 

When I wanted to play hockey my father asked what are these Anglish games, you should learn to fight and kill. 

That is how you survive…

I was raised in a world of two realities, one flippant and the other bitterly serious.

Jochen sees the same insatiable monster’s path. 

We watch in quiet but we are not passive. The Russians know this beast as well as anyone. Finns, Balts, Ukrainians, Poles, Central Europeans we lost an uncountable number.

Then the Americans claimed a total victory in 1945, and got the same slow social disease.

War continued well into the 1950’s in the East.

Trump is no more than a bleating goat tethered to a tent peg in the forest. Now that both national parties are discredited more demons are emerging, the Media/Bubble and the National Intelligence community.

I admit to being dumbstruck by Trump’s counter reactions. He might make it to the end of a term but don’t bet on it. 

Trump and Putin are drawing out the poisons in the system.

Putin might survive in some clever way but Trump is clearly blinded by his own aura or his deodorant.

Trump is performing his role as Bait, very well.

vib 

I ask that no one ever confuses thinking for passivity, nor mistake me for an apocalyptic hermit.

So calm down a bit and reduce your heart rate before you touch a trigger.

Is that a spoof about Americans coming to Canada, tell them to bring a good coat because it is -40 C with windchill.

You are crazy to look for a balmy sanctuary up here. This place is only fit for the crazy Siberians now.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Grant Holland
Sent: January-12-17 6:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

Eric,

You make a good point about your concerns being orthogonal to mine.

To my point, though... one of the things that Trump is doing to exacerbate my concern is to nominate folks (e.g. the senator from Alabama to AG) who have vowed to promote further class marginalization, and have demonstrated that such is their propensity and commitment - by, for example, supporting the KKK.

Grant

On 1/12/17 12:12 PM, Eric Charles wrote:

Grant, et al.,

I fully understand concern for the effect that electing Trump might have on the attitudes of the larger population. I have relatives who are, in fact, moving from rural areas, where discrimination was already noticeable, to Canada, in anticipation of increased discrimination (inspired by what, to them, Trump's victory represents). However, I see that as conceptually distinct from concern over what Trump himself might do. They are moving due to concerns about their local neighbors, not about what might happen in the White House or in Trump Towers, and not because they are afraid of Trump being kept in proximity to the football. 

As for the VP and the cabinet deciding to try to ouster him, that seems unlikely, unless he becomes considerably more erratic. The "out" provided by the 25th amendment is clearly intended for someone who becomes unstable in office. The law requires people the president put in place to declare that they no longer have faith in him, which implies a fundamental change in the character of the person whose agenda they agreed to serve. 

The amendment is not intended to remove a narcissistic person, who was such when elected, and is still such in office. If it becomes clear that he is fundamentally unfit for office, they will turn against him, but "unfit" by their standards will mean that he consistently disrupts the ability of the party to get things done, not merely that he gives erratic press conferences and tweets in the middle of the night. As far as general decorum, recall that "whip it out like LBJ" is a perfectly valid expression. As far as mental incompetence, recall that Regan was pretty far gone by the end of his time, and the people around him kept things running fairly well. So long as the party can keep things running fairly well despite Trump's flaws, there won't be a sufficient number of people willing to sign. 

P.S. Out of curiosity, does anyone else know someone actually moving as a result of the election?

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Grant Holland <grant.holland.sf at gmail.com> wrote:

Eric,

It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say "extreme", I mean extreme. 

I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11 year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)

So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political manifestations.

I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's where I was in 2000 when W won.) 

And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like. 

Thanks for listening to me!
Grant 

On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:

The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members of the press every day. 

Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest questions. 

Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant, more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities, etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech, which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to the actions of the other individuals mentioned. 

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <gepropella at gmail.com> 

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00) 

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com> 

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill? 

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best. 
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...

-- 
☣ glen

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