[FRIAM] Weird observation

[Gillian Densmore]

Steve if it's a "sudden" riff of questions it's because I honestly genuinly
don't know what else to do to find the rescources I need: I've NEVER on
this or any other list consously said (I hope) I simply don't know. Yeah
i'm in my "late" (humoursl voice VERY late) 30's): because just say certain
fam members reasonably don't know what the heck to do given a rif that's
not at all apropiate for this list: I can not rely on them. I do not want
to lean on them. So I am all due to some on this list pulling a start-rek
trek. I do not want this to be read as sarcastic:
I simply genuinly don't know what else to do, or why it might be weird to
say: Uh advice please!  What ever I was doing before simply isn't working I
need some guidance, and advice.  I am not at all trying to come off as
throwing this in anyones face!
I have no idea why it took so long for me to push my comfort zones and want
to have friends. No it may not have started as a support group. I do
consider many on the list at least aquaintences some strait up friends:
Nick and Kim (I have no idea if Kim Sorvice ist still subbed)

What all that said:: I for one hit a wall and fell appart I'll leave what
between family and a theriapist. I have never denied I go to those and
sorting what the what wrong or very right for the real pros.
The observation was simply huh weird do people really find it so weird for
a stranger to open doors for them when they have their hands for with
groceries (that's a real example)? oO
And while at the doctors office someone acted like In vented the chevy volt
or hydrogen feul cell: oh sorry sir you can go first.
*shruging* no I don't expect to be "budy budy" with a doctor. I DO however
think it's reasonable that a pro at least be cordial, not complain about
the clock, or that I clearly need and stil need a bit of TLC' That's what
those kind of pros are for.

I am trying to find the right places for a Re-do.
I'm sorry if it came off as a flood or riff for needing and wanting some
guidance from people that might have vastly more experience than I do in
those areas. Hell that horribly laacking resrouce can well be: oh have
tried (forum here) I found them really great for (stuff here)?!

I did ask presbytarian because---bluntly I've had enought of Saint Vincents
being jerks about routine questions.So why not ask for others experience?
is that not a good idea? oO

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Steven A Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

> Gil -
>
> I am intuiting from your current riff of questions/anecdotes here, that
> you are feeling out of sorts on many fronts.  With a significant
> engagement with the health-care system, THAT interface is an important
> one for you and is broadly, if not categorically not working for you
> right now...  various providers and interface staff are not responding
> well to you and it is adding to your "out of sortiness".   It sounds
> like a positive feedback loop, where you are anticipating being
> mishandled and sending signals that lead staff/providers to then go off
> their normal "bedside manner game" in some way or another which just
> reinforces your feelings of being mishandled, etc.   I don't mean to
> "blame the victim"... just pointing out that you are probably
> participating in the breakdown in some way which you might be able to
> change and get a better result.
>
> I have any number of "service" interactions which I know I don't handle
> well by my nature.   I don't engage in the health care system much at
> all (sometimes avoiding for decades) for this reason... I find the whole
> paradigm flawed and I wear that on my sleeve when I *do* engage and THAT
> naturally puts some of the people I'm interacting with off.   Similarly
> I have to be thoughtful/careful when I try to buy technology (in person)
> or seek repair or parts for my technology.  I used to have lots of
> problems with cell phone companies (who doesn't?).  I often have trouble
> with ISPs...  and all because I often *do* know more about their
> technologies and service than the average customer, and maybe (in some
> cases) "just enough to get me in trouble", or at least enough to
> irritate the first line service/sales people trying to just get through
> their day and sell/install/service 100 more commodity (to them) items.
>
> Our "service" and "care" systems are optimized to deliver their services
> on *their model* and they appear very fragile if you try to get them to
> interact on YOUR model.
>
> Even fast food... "have it your way" is a little like Henry Ford's "you
> can have your Model-T in any color you want as long as it is black".
> Many can handle simple substitutions/deletions but that is about it.
> When I was a young vegetarian I learned to order a "cheeseburger, hold
> the meat, and if the cook can handle it, toast the bun upside down"....
> What I often got was the "grilled cheese sandwich with lettuce, tomato,
> pickle" I wanted but was not on their menu. I don't think I *ever* got a
> grilled cheese just by asking for it if it wasn't on their menu, but
> nobody ever turned me down on deleting the meat from a cheeseburger.  If
> the place had served me before it usually went easy and the bun was
> usually toasted and "inside out" as I asked.   Sometimes I paid full
> price for a burger, other times they followed the formula for what an
> extra patty would cost and I'd end up with the grilled cheese at a steep
> discount: "$2.50 for the cheeseburger - $1.00 for the patty... that will
> be $1.00+ tax!"  If they were busy, I would just come back another
> time... it wasn't in my interest to stress their system for my quirky
> preferences.   Today it would be gluten-free, keto-friendly,
> paleo-compliant, non-gmo, grass-fed-dairy...  and $15.
>
> TLDR: (Auto Mechanic Anecdote) I had the same problem with auto repair
> until I recognized what I was doing and made a very acute effort to meet
> them on *their turf*.   Until I started a 60 mile RT daily commute I had
> done most if not all of my own car repair, up to and including swapping
> out engines and replacing stripped gears in transmissions.  I was not an
> expert, but for other shadetree mechanics here, you may know that the
> resources are amazing at some level...  half the parts you need are
> already stocked at a store nearby and they can get virtually any other
> within hours or days just by specifying the details of the vehicle and
> it's subsystem...   third party manuals (Haynes/Chiltons) are far from
> perfect but once you find a good one for your vehicle.. and if that
> isn't good enough... dealer service manuals are available for about the
> price of an hour or three of shop time from a real mechanic, etc.   The
> bottom line was that I *thought* I knew more about my vehicle than the
> mechanic (well, in some  ways I did) and I wanted him to start with MY
> diagnosis and MY preferred solution when it just didn't fit his
> paradigm.   Generally mechanics don't trust civilians to know their cars
> and the subsystems and diagnose them well, and in fact, if I hadn't dug
> into the problem up to my armpits myself, I was often guessing (and
> guessing wrong) based on superficial symptoms.     In any case, they
> almost always disappointed me with their bedside manner... they didn't
> want to listen to what I already knew about the problem and they REALLY
> didn't want to listen to my repair suggestions.   They were usually
> superficially polite but my empathetic self had me radiating my own
> hostility or doubt in them I suspect.   Eventually I tried a mechanic
> that was known to me, very convenient and with a generally good
> reputation and I backed off and put my vehicles in their hands.  I let
> them change oil, rotate tires, top off fluids, etc.   and I let THEM
> tell me when they noticed a growing problem (e.g. oil leaks, bad tread
> wear patterns, etc) and they proved quickly to me that THEY were as
> competent as I (or more) to notice growing problems and recognize
> reasonable solutions.  I occasionally mention things to them to look at,
> but unless the symptoms are acute, I leave it to them to notice and they
> (almost) always do! They have better shop manuals and better tools
> (especially a lift in a heated space) and extra hands when a job is
> easier with two people.   I paid $50/hour (the good ole days) for them
> to do things I felt I could do in half (in reality, twice) the time and
> it irritated me, but almost exclusively, they *never* lied to me or
> mislead me.  Previous mechanics I'd tried this with would do a job or
> two OK then they would tell me something I knew was patently false
> (e.g." you need a new clutch slave cylinder" on a vehicle I knew to have
> a mechanical linkage).   In retrospect, I don't think they were trying
> to cheat me, but might have been being lazy or sloppy... they may have
> "guessed" at something without looking closely, not realizing that *my*
> model had a different subsystem than the one they were most familiar
> with, or they cross-remembered another vehicle, or ???    In any case, I
> would go away mad and go back to not trusting mechanics, etc.
>
> Today it has been almost 20 years I've been with my primary mechanic...
> his son has taken over (most of) the business and they know all my
> vehicles by heart and are happy to do pre-purchase inspections on new
> ones I am considering.   Some problems and vehicles I don't bring to
> them because they aren't familiar with them.   I don't expect them to
> work on the hybrid components of my Gen1 Hybrid Insight and I don't ask
> them to do much on my 1949 Ford Dump (though they do like the truck, it
> doesn't fit in their bays easily and can only be raised about 3 feet on
> their lifts, and parts are *very* hard to get, complicated by the fact
> the engine is from an early 60's ford farm equipment and while a
> standard Ford design, has oddities specific to the tractor/thresher/???
> it was pulled from.  I only asked them to try to tune the mechanical
> fuel injection on my mid-80s VW Cabriolet once... then did it myself
> after not finding an obvious mechanic with specific familiarity.   I'm
> in the midst of trying to get a new (used) 20Kwh hybrid battery
> installed in my 2011 Chevy Volt.   It weighs 400 lbs, carries 360V when
> energized, has sophisticated battery management subsystems and
> integrating systems internal and external to it, and has to interface to
> a number of computerized subsystems including the main computer, the
> ECU, a charging control system, etc.   The service manager at the dealer
> is waaaay over his head on this project and I get the sense that the
> factory trained tech (for this specific model) has not had occasion to
> ever remove or replace (or diagnose beyond pulling DTC codes from the
> main computer).   But I know I am at their mercy.   The vehicle
> subsystems are so specific to GM that (almost literally?) nobody except
> GM dealers have the specialized tools and computer codes/software to
> handle the re-energizing/calibrating of a battery.   The physical
> aspects of swapping the battery are daunting enough, especially without
> a lift, and I wouldn't expect ANY sane mechanic with a lift, etc. to
> want to mess with this HV system.   I have done enough hybrid/EV/HV
> electronics work to feel I could do it safely myself, but it would be
> only *my life* on the line.  So I had to talk the service manager
> through discovering that his Volt trained technician *could* install a
> battery not provided by GM directly (a very few others have done this
> around the US) and come up with the shop hours (7@$111) for the
> procedure so I could order up a salvaged one (from a low-mileage
> recently wrecked vehicle) to be delivered to them by freight. (BTW, a
> NEW (refurbished?) GM Battery System is $8K retail plus installation).
>
>   I'm sure the service manager was frustrated with me *many* times along
> the way and his demeanor often left me wanting to cop my own attitude
> and "go away mad".  I think now that we are at the point of having
> scheduled the work and the battery is en-route... he has become
> intrigued by the project and probably wants to see it succeed rather
> than just "wanting me to go away" which is how I felt through more than
> a little of the process.  And *I was aware* of the pitfalls of wanting
> non-standard things that I have more knowledge about than the service
> providers and I *still* stressed them almost to their limit.  I *wanted*
> to blame them and be angry and resentful, but I had to acknowledge that
> my kind of task is NOT their bread and butter, that the individuals (and
> the whole system) has to see an upside to working with me before they
> are going to be willing, much less positive about it.
>
> Gil...  YOU may be the Chevy Volt of the human world.  Your needs may be
> unusual enough that it is *hard* for the standard systems to meet you on
> their terms and as you probably already know/guess, it really is up to
> you to understand what the system is capable of and how to meet it on
> terms where neither you nor they are too stressed by the interface to
> function properly.   I don't know you *well* but believe you to have the
> self-awareness to find productive ways to change your
> interface/expectations enough to begin to reduce the stress you are
> feeling right now.   Your other stated activities (hiking, gym, dancing,
> etc.) seem like very positive directions to help you regulate (physical
> activity is almost always a positive thing for virtually everyone) and
> find new and varied friends and interests.    I don't make it to WedTech
> often (annually if lucky?) but next time I'm in town with some time on
> my hands, maybe we can get together for a bite or some coffee or tea and
> we can bore (entertain?) one another with anecdotes about trying to
> interface with a world of commodity objects and services.
>
> - Steve
>
>
> On 7/13/18 9:20 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > Perhaps the first step needs to be "How sensitive is this patient to
> bedside manner?", and from that estimate then prioritize the relative
> timing of one sort of analysis over another.   I assume I'm dealing with an
> intelligent, if imperfect, person.    I think it takes some self-control to
> be a good patient, too.
> >
> > On 7/13/18, 9:13 AM, "Friam on behalf of ∄ uǝʃƃ" <
> friam-bounces at redfish.com on behalf of gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >     Perhaps.  But if that's the case, I would immediately leave and find
> another Dr.  As I explained before, and is peppered throughout Renee's
> training, the "assessment of the patient", which involves really *looking*
> at the patient, is more powerful than any other (set of) metric(s).
> >
> >     To be clear, the patient assessment machine can be completely
> autistic.  But they must "assess the patient" by looking at her.
> >
> >     On 07/13/2018 08:06 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >     > Is it not possible the doctor looking at her computer is just like
> Glen listening to music without moving?    Focusing on the facts of the
> matter and not on distracting emotional signals?
> >     >
> >     > On 7/13/18, 9:03 AM, "Friam on behalf of ∄ uǝʃƃ" <
> friam-bounces at redfish.com on behalf of gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
> >     >
> >     >     For what it's worth, my Dr. thanked me after our 1st
> interaction.  He walked in with his laptop, sat down and started poking at
> it.  I then used my familiarity with electronic medical records (I was a
> product mgr at such a company at one point) to finagle his attention and
> demonstrate our mutual affinity for how computation can help him provide
> good healthcare.  I even explained how I'd looked him up online beforehand
> and knew all the schools he went to and that he had no active malpractice
> suits against him.  (Which was no small feat since he's an immigrant from
> India.)
> >     >
> >     >     That interaction successfully grabbed his attention.  Perhaps,
> since you're also computer literate, you could use the same trick next time
> a Dr's attention is too focused on the computer?
> >     >
> >     >     On 07/13/2018 07:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >     >     > It is a bigger problem that people are more concerned about
> `getting along’ than they are about maintaining a functional government.
> >     >     > As for doctors, I don’t want them to my friend.   I want
> them to take their limited time and focus their extensive training, to
> rationalize the symptoms I present.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of
> Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com>
> >     >     > Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> >     >     > Date: Friday, July 13, 2018 at 8:39 AM
> >     >     > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> >     >     > Subject: [FRIAM] Weird observation
> >     >     >
> >     >     > While at doctor's office trying ask a nurse to politely
> express to a doctor that it comes off as rude when that doc is obssed with
> a computer gets a reaction like you've invented warp drive.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Is it really that unusual for people to try to actively be
> cordial these days? If so captian we got a problem!
> >
> >
> >     --
> >     ∄ uǝʃƃ
> >
> >     ============================================================
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> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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