[FRIAM] /Topic Latent in: Latent Topics was: enough sleep?

Wed Apr 10 16:50:24 EDT 2019

Everyone needs to understand---and soon---that the entitlement that allows
us to exist as a species is disappearing rapidly as climate catastrophe
continues to cascade.  Everything else is noise.

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 1:02 PM Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> One of you said:
>
>
>
> *and I can't help but wonder *why* individuals are so entitled to think
> they deserve anything at all other than the opportunity to exist ... if
> even that.*
>
>
>
>
>
> Lurking in the back caves of my liberal bleeding heart lurks a troll who
> responds badly to "entitlement" and its close relative "victimhood."
>
> Every entitlement enjoyed by one person relies on an obligation taken on
> by others.  So the conversation should start with deciding what obligations
> we want to take on so as to afford a reasonable sense of safety and
> protection for others.  I happen to think that I, and my children, and
> grandchildren will be happier there are basic supports to limit poverty,
> disease, and despair in the population around us.  And, I am also glad when
> I think that those supports will be available for me and mine, should they
> become necessary.   But is there a "moral hazard", here?  Will I drive less
> cautiously because I have automobile insurance, smoke more and drink more
> Pepsi because I have health insurance, spend more freely because there will
> be food stamps?  I suppose there's data on that, somewhere.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 10:00 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: [FRIAM] Latent Topics was: enough sleep?
>
>
>
> Marcus wrote, in response to Glen:
>
>
>
> > In the end, life is just a struggle for power.
>
>
>
> I think this is technically accurate, but may carry a cynicism which
> ignores some subtleties along the way?  It invokes the image attributed (I
> think) to Tennyson and perhaps exploited by Dawkins to provide contrast to
> support his Selfish Genery (Nick?).   "Nature: Red in Tooth and Claw".
>
>
>
> Edwin Wilson might anthropomorphize "genes" in Dawkins style, with his
> statement “morality is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us
> to cooperate”, but it does seem to sum up one perspective on the illusions
> (or realities?) that seem to come along with cooperation
>
> (symbiosis) in nature?
>
>
>
> From my ALife days, "Life" is a lot of things at once, while being roughly
> as simple as systems which increase negentropy in the flux of free energy
> sources. Your "struggle for power" is perhaps a reflection of the
> competition for better exposure to said "flux".   Coherence, Homeostasis,
> Reproduction, Competition for Resources...  It seems like some here have
> been more deeply engaged in these topics than I...  your colloquial use of
> "Power" would suggest a little higher level of emergent properties,
> implying networks of predator/prey, parasite/symbiote, even ecosystems?
> Erwin Schroedinger in his classic _What is Life?_ seemed to reduce it as
> well as any physicist could, yet still left open plenty of acknowledgement
> of higher level emergent properties (I think).
>
>
>
> I have recently been reading up on "plant guilds" and in particular "tree
> guilds" to improve how I encourage or cultivate the landscape around my
> house to become more productive and interesting for me and mine.
> Recognizing the subtle interactions between highly distinct species (from
> every kingdom of life) and how their resonances can be reinforcing is
> fascinating.  Of course, the ideal of what is "pleasing and productive" is
> highly context-dependent.   I don't know what kinds of ecosystems have
> evolved around "invasive species" such as tumbleweeds, russian olives,
> tamarisk, but it might only be their relatively *recent* invasion that has
> us considering them a problem...
>
> they haven't found an equilibrium with the other flora, fauna and
> hydrogeological phenomena (riparian in particular) and all WE recognize is
> the disruption of the old order, and lament the loss of the "convenient"
> qualities offered to us and ours by the old order.
>
>
>
> I am also 90% of the way through Richard Powers latest Novel _Overstory_
> which uses the lives and loves of perhaps a dozen humans to expose the rich
> and ancient history of and contemporary experience of Trees.  It is
> something of an epic opus among his many richly complex books and
> characters.  He did a reading at the Lensic in February and reported that
> during the course of the research for this book he moved to the edge of the
> Smoky Mountain National Park to be near the old growth forest there while
> he finished up the novel.  The human societal metaphor of a Guild centered
> around a Tree seems pale in import and complexity in the face of his
> description of the legacy of  trees and forests.
>
>
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
> >   As soon as one starts to think in terms of entitled or not entitled
> (beyond rhetoric and tactics), it is just taking your eye off the ball.
> Whether it is for the best or not is in the end, subjective.
>
> >
>
> > Btw, it's good you point out the concept of the "underlying thread".
> Same idea:  There's the stated topic of a thread and then there are latent
> topics.   Usually latent topics are more interesting anyway.   An
> individual can be a class or an individual can be one of a billion
> instances of a latent class.    Mostly we are all redundant, and encouraged
> to be so -- the latter -- good little consumers, churchgoers, and taxpayers.
>
> >
>
> > On 4/10/19, 7:46 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> on behalf of gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >     The underlying thread seems to be the extent to which we are part of
> a fluid and the extent to which that fluid's phenomena are distinct from
> those phenomena generated by the individual parts, the humans.
> Individualist ⇔ socialist spectrum, the ontological status of groups
> (including whether your animals are mere slaves or full members of your
> group), cyborg or healthy organelle, etc.
>
> >
>
> >     It reminds me of the quote I think highlights the individualist's
>
> > arrogance: "I don't know why we're here.  But I'm pretty sure it's not
>
> > to enjoy ourselves." (attributed to Wittgenstein)
>
> >
>
> >     Why do we think we should ever "feel recharged", "be happy", "be
> healthy", etc?  I look at the way my cats behave, compare their lives to
> that of the stray we fed (and who bled all over our patio every time he
> ate, who when we took him to the Feral Cat Society, killed him right off
> the bat because he had so many diseases) and I can't help but wonder *why*
> individuals are so entitled to think they deserve anything at all other
> than the opportunity to exist ... if even that.
>
> >
>
> >
>
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-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Executive Director, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
merlelefkoff at gmail.com <merlelefoff at gmail.com>
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
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