[FRIAM] narcissism

[uǝlƃ ☣]

More on 2 types:

Vulnerable and Grandiose Narcissism Are Differentially Associated With Ability and Trait Emotional Intelligence
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01606/full

Vulnerable Vs Grandiose Narcissism: Which Is More Harmful?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mysteries-love/201906/vulnerable-vs-grandiose-narcissism-which-is-more-harmful

The first article is more credible, I suppose. It seems to my incompetent eye to describe 2 different *subclinical* types. But the second article is more provocative to me because it talks about an *oscillation* in clinical (as opposed to subclinical) NPD, which kindasorta echoes what I tried to say about modes and rates.

But what's most interesting, I guess, is that Dunning-Kruger might be at play. Where a narcissist might be incompetent, she might over-estimate her skills (at emotional intelligence as well as whatever else) [†]. The distinction between "trait EI" and "ability EI" is lost on me, however. So I can't quite parse the ending statements of the first paper. I can definitely parse the part about it being an online survey. 8^)


[†] We might infer that Trump's narcissism is NOT the problem. It's his sheer incompetence that's the problem. So all this yapping about him being a narcissist might be, at best, wasted breath and, at worst, a red herring distracting from the real problem.

On 4/27/20 12:03 PM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
> Sorry for any overemphasis. I was merely *wondering if* there might be 2 types. I was inferring it partly from the Alternate model in the DSM 5 and partly from my own sense that the way people talk about them is contradictory. Your quote from Kernberg only hints at it.
> 
> Being episodic, myself, I could see how there would not be two *types*, but perhaps two *modes*. 1) defining one's self-esteem based on others' adulation (external locus) and 2) defining one's self-esteem based on some internal urgic homunculus (internal locus). If it's modal, then the same person might display (1) and (2) depending on the time, space, or context, leading to an apparent contradiction in the arching narrative/ephemeris, but resolving it by slicing up into episodes. And if it's a *speed* or rate thing (like fast/slow thinking), then it's plausible that (1) iterates rapidly while (2) iterates slowly.
> 
> I'll take a look at the Kernberg book. Thanks!
> 
> On 4/27/20 11:53 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> Does this quote from Kernberg have to do with your feeling that there are two types of narcissist:
>>
>>
>> In general their relationships with other people are clearly exploitive and sometimes parasitic. It is as if they feel they have the right to control and possess others and to exploit them without guilt feelings--and behind a surface which very often is charming and engaging, one senses coldness and ruthlessness.
>> Very often such patients are considered to be dependent because they need so much tribute and adoration from others but on a deeper level they are completely unable really to depend on anybody because of their deep distrust and depreciation of others.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 12:42 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     I think I said that person's with NPD are almost psychotic.  I checked with my wife, a very experienced clinician, and she says that is not correct.  But she also says that there are not two types.  One interesting thing that she said is that her mentor, a training analyst, said that after treating a narcissist for many years you can uncover a severe obsessional personality at which point you have to start again to treat that.  That implies a treatment length that only someone like Woody Allen can afford.  I'm not saying that he's a malignant narcissist.  
>>
>>     I am speaking over my head but obviously DSM-V may oversimplify.
>>
>>     My wife says that the book I mentioned, "Analysis of the Self" by Kohut is not as good as "Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism" by Otto Kernberg.
> 
> 
> 

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ