[FRIAM] (no subject)

Mon Aug 17 16:52:48 EDT 2020

Dear Steve, 

Thanks for this response;  it is just the sort of challenge I need to push
me along in my thinking.  You write: 

Can you (or anyone else?) refute or frame my assertion about the *epi*
prefix?

Please recall to mind the two diagrams that I have posted, the first a
picture of the toy I am calling the Epiphenomenator and the second a diagram
of  the relations in one (admittedly hypothetical) ethological control
system.  

Here, after having been cheerfully mauled by you-all for a week or so, I
offer the present state of my understanding:  To be a thing, is to have an
infinity of properties, some of interest, some incidental to our interest.
Now, as you rightly suppose, the whole ball game is how some properties get
to be "of interest" while others are "merely incidental".   After all, we
humans have as many interests as things have properties.  Which category a
property falls into requires the identification of a point of view to frame
our categorization.  So, for good or ill, I am defining here an
epiphenomenal property as an incidental property that accompanies a property
of interest.  I have had so much pushback on my use of "epiphenomenal", I
shall try not to use much here,  and rather focus on the frames that make
some properties "of interest" and others "incidental".  

Now one manner in which a property can become of interest is that it pleases
us, as humans.  Color is of interest to us trichromats, and so, for us as
trichromats, size is incidental.  Let's call this frame of reference,
"aesthetic".   But we could also be interested in a causal frame of
reference.  From that point of view, the size of the spheres is of interest,
because their size determines which spheres end up where.  The point of the
device is to demonstrate the possibility that a property I care about can
have little to do with getting the result I like. 

You may say, at this point, "I see your argument, but 'little to do' is way
overstated."  I agree.  The epiphenomenator is, of course, a device designed
to demonstrate a point and the fact that some of the spheres are of
different colors and that each size has a characteristic color has
everything to do with the color and size of the spheres.  But that
observation requires a still larger and more inclusive frame of reference,
the frame of reference of a demonstrator.    

The second diagram seeks to bring this insight to bear on the ethological
observation that the motivations of animals are rarely sufficient to produce
the outcomes for which those motivations are selected. They require the
linkage of properties.   The big swooshy arrows suggest different frames,
the frame of motivation in which the cooling of the dove's belly is of
interest and the warming of the egg is incidental, and the frame of natural
selection, in which the warming of the egg is of interest and the cooling of
the belly is incidental.  I am not sure of the last attribution because, of
course, natural selection would deal harshly with any dove that did not
desire to cool its belly.  I have, therefore, to give some thought to how I
characterize frames that are nested within other frames.  

Thanks for helping me with this. 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> 

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 10:32 AM
To: friam at redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"

Nick -

FYI, Mary just found 6 *brown* eggs in the (almost) closed off section of
our coop intended to *become* the nesting boxes for our chickens...
apparently they were able to "squeeze in" and lay their eggs.   These our
very first eggs from these hens... 6 eggs from 8 hens... possibly not all
layed in the last 24 hours...  but maybe.   So in this case, brown eggs are
*ultra* local and for sure, fresher than those even collected from the
myriad egg-factories in NM.    We had 3 this morning for breakfast and they
were not just "fresh" but "rich" (they free range in our courtyard where
along with eating any tender shoot that might to come up, they also get a
lot of insects).

I still contend that what you are calling epiphenomena is primarily a
reflection of our ignorance... correlations and causations which are
secondary or tertiary or n-ary to what we are measuring or are focused on.
I think the "epi" in epiphenoma is an artifact of the observer in a much
stronger sense than a phenomenon of the system.  I brought up *epi*systems
before, mostly in the context of *engineered* systems.    An electric
starter motor on an automobile (or perhaps a "pony engine" on a Dozer or
other giant yellow dirt-moving diesel-powered machine) is there for the
epi-purpose of getting the main engine turning over to generate the
necessary fuel-mixture-flow and compression to get it started.   In
principle (with a manual transmission and now clutch-lockout-switch) one can
use their electric motor to move their vehicle.  My parents, in fact did
this once when I was very young with their VW pickup, moving over the crest
of a hill so that they could coast it back into town to the VW mechanic that
had just done service on it and caused some unexpected problem (my father
was in no way a mechanic).  

Or maybe I'm just not open-minded enough or reading this thread carefully
enough

- Steve

On 8/17/20 9:23 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
wrote:

Dave, 

In all the years of dealing with you wizards, I have never heard of that
taxonomy before.  Can you direct me to a child-level introduction to it? 

for those not familiar with computing, there are seven different types of
"cohesion" and eight types of "coupling." Communicational coupling is one of
the eight.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam  <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <friam-bounces at redfish.com>
On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 7:59 AM
To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"

What prompted me to tell the story was another account of a convoluted and
complicated reproductive cycle - the sheep tick nematode. It seems like a
single, multi-step, process with each step highly cohesive and therefore
appearing somewhat autonomous, but the sequence being, at minimum,
communicationally coupled.

BTW - for those not familiar with computing, there are seven different types
of "cohesion" and eight types of "coupling." Communicational coupling is one
of the eight.

davew

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020, at 6:17 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:

Dave, hi,

Your description is very close to the original description by Conrad
Waddington for the process he terms "canalization".

I haven't read a ton of this stuff, but I believe the first paper (also
about birds, but this time ostriches), was:

  author = "Waddington, C.~H.",

  title = "Canalization of development and the inheritance of

           acquired characters",

  journal = "Nature",

  volume = "150",

  pages = "563--565",

  year = "1942"

I expect, however, that Nick and EricC read all this stuff in the crib,
because they have read and written a lot on evolution.  But in any case, it
gives a concrete point of departure.

Eric

On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:52 PM, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm
<mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm> > wrote:

Silly question / story - about doves not chickens.

I gave the dove, like all my creatures, a command to be fruitful and
multiply. But I know my dove well, and both the he and she of dovedom tend
to be a bit forgetful, even careless. It seemed to me that they would need
some kind of reminder to sit on any eggs they produce but they seldom had
access to an alarm clock or appointment book. Aha, said I, realizing a cute
trick. A simple tweak of the hormonal system, a system that already has
timing elements, will generate an itchy breast that can be soothed by
sitting on the eggs. Of course, I will need to make sure an egg is sat upon
and not a smooth river rock, and I want the itch to recede after an
appropriate time interval, so I will have the dove secrete a substance that
will bond with an element of the chemical structure on an egg shell and that
reaction will require the necessary egg-sitting interval to complete and
sooth the dove-breast until the hormonal system next secretes the substance.

One process, not two that are somehow related "epiphemomon-ologically." If
this is my theory, might I, if I were an ethologist, construct an experiment
to confirm/deny it?

I think this kind of approach to constructing/confirming a theory would end
up making Occam happier than the approach discussed on the list and at last
Friday's vFRIAM.

davew

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, at 12:10 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com
<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>  wrote:

Well,  yes.  But is that necessary to expose the fundamental problem?  (Not
a rhetorical question, I promise.)  In my presentation of the problem I have
tried to reduce it to "one level", I.e, one color of spheres co=related to
one size.  Put in red (large) and yellow (small) spheres into the top and
get small yellow spheres out the bottom.  That there are four
levels/sizes/colors is just gravy, isn't it?  Eye candy?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2f
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From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly

Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 11:14 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> >

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"

So, your homework is to give a conditional independence relationship that
describes the reality.  Maybe level is the third variable.

---

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 

Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918

Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 10:58 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

No. Sorry.  The shape/size thing is a confusion that got introduced early in
the discussion because Jon's toy was different from Sober's Toy.  Jon's toy
sorted for shape; Sober's for size.  So, forget shape.  We are just talking
about size and color. (See attached illustration). 

Now, imagine that we put a shroud around the toy so we cannot see into it.
We put spheres, mixed by size and color into the top and shake it. (Remember
that yellow balls are the smallest, green balls the next size up, etc.)  Lo
and behold, all the small yellow balls end up at the bottom.    In the
shrouded version, nothing tells us whether the machine is sorting for size
and giving us color or sorting for color and giving us size, right?  It's
the golden goose problem.  Is the goose good at finding flecks of gold in
the barnyard or does the goose contain a huge store of gold inside her.
Statistically, it doesn't make any difference, but if you are thinking of
killing the goose for the gold, you better the hell know which kind of goose
you got. 

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2f
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From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly

Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 10:28 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> >

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"

What it sounds like you're saying is color is independent of shape given
size?

---

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 

Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918

Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 9:56 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Frank

Doesn't covariance beg the question of causality?  Put another way,
mathematics doesn't care how the small spheres come to be yellow.  Imagine
an opaque "epiphenomenator" so far as the math is concerned it could as well
be true that smallness is getting a free ride on yellowness as that
yellowness is getting a free ride on smallness. 

Thanks, again, for helping me think about this.  

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2f
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From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly

Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:51 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> >

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"

Good choice.  Our statistical causal reasoning algorithms were based on
conditional independence relations (is A independent of B given C) which are
tested using covariance statistics.

---

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 

Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918

Santa Fe, N

On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 11:32 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu
<mailto:desmith at santafe.edu> > wrote:

"Covariance" is the term I see universally used in population genetics.

If one is disappointed at merely using the mathematical label for the only
relation that ever appears in the mathematics, then the question arises what
else one wants from a categorization, if the categorization will always be
quarantined outside the math that carries the consequences.

We had this discussion for "interpretations of quantum mechanics", and
because Jon had some reasonable things to say about what one does want from
such an interpretation, it seems appropriate to ask whether similar
contributions should be sought here.

Eric

On Aug 16, 2020, at 2:23 PM, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Frank, 

Well, yes, precisely.  And what would you call that relation?  It's a very
common relation, but I don't seem to have a very good name for it. 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2f
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From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly

Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 10:29 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> >

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"

Nick,

The toy seems to me to illustrate that one variable can be causally related
to another (selected) and correlated to a third which is not causally
connected to the third.

Or something like that.  Am I close?

Frank

---

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 

Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918

Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 10:04 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi, Eric, 

Nobody should treat my thoughts concerning epiphenomena, intension,
extension, etc. as anything more than vaguely informed explorations.  But
you know that.   I have struggled for years to understand what my colleagues
mean by these terms and they constantly necker-cube for me, so to the extent
that I  cannot usually be  relied to know what I am talking about, this is a
particularly dangerous area for me.  In particular, I don't think Sober uses
the term, "epiphenomenon", in his book, so I would not like to have my
understanding of the term scraped off on him.  Calling it the device (see
attachment) the Sober Epiphenomenator is probably all on me.  

My colleagues have warned me away from poking at this dungheap, but I am
fascinated by it.  It just seems to me that underlying all this mess is a
pretty simple idea, and I would like to clear it up, if only for myself.
And it further seems to me that the Sober device, in its childlike simplity,
might be a good place to start.  

I look forward to considering your economic example to see if it fits the
template, if there is a template.    

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2f
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From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of David Eric Smith

Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 9:30 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> >

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"

It is so interesting that, just as in the earlier discussions of emergence
and probably others, Nick uses the word "epiphenomenal" in ways it would
never occur to me to use it, and as far as I can tell quite exclusive of the
only way it did ever occur to me to use it.  I guess DS Wilson (or Elliot
Sober?) uses it the same way as Nick is using it, and I never looked up what
was the canonical usage.  

But anyway.

I had always used the term in reference to neoclassical economics (NE) and
its treatment of preferences and institutions.  I had always said that NE
treated institutions as epiphenomena of preferences.  By which I mean the
following:

1. Even economists can't simply pretend institutions don't exist.

2. However, Arrow, Debreu, and McKenzie proved lovely existence theorems for
optimal allocations from the competition of individual preferences, and the
economists really really insist on remaining in the Garden of Eden of those
existence proofs.

What to do?

3. Acknowledge that all these names and descriptions of institutions do
really point at things-in-the-world, but declare that economically those
things don't actually do any work or mean anything.  They are like
constellations in the sky; patterns that can be seen from certain angles, as
one looks at the _actual_ basis for economic behavior, which is individual
preferences.  

That was what I had thought was captured in the characterization
"epiphenomenal".  But clearly I am using it as something of a gesture-word,
and not something for which I am building a strict formal logic.  It is more
an attempt to explain the patterns of choices and work by a group of people,
and to impute a state of mind to them to explain those choices.

The alternative to institutions as "epiphenomena" of preferences would be
institutions that not only exist as patterns to be named, but as real things
in the world that do essential work in determining what happens.  They
govern what actions are available to us, what knowledge we have to act on,
what power or authority or roles, and on and on.  They define signaling
systems (monetary units and physical monies, ownership claims, etc.) and
provide the channels on which the signals are transmitted (contract law,
taxation, etc.), and thus are the framework to operationally coordinate
pretty-much everything we think of as constituting economic life.  Without
them we would not have raw, competing complete preferences; we would largely
cease to exist as economic agents.

The usage isn't entirely unlike Nick's semiotic/intensional-extensional
contrasts, but it seems to differ in the sense that, when I say the NE guys
treat institutions as epiphenomena of preferences, the work that they want
done would be the same whether done by preferences or by institutions.  So
if they were to think of institutions as mattering, those would be
contributing part of the mechanics of choice then not carried by
preferences, whereas if they are epiphenomena they are like a kind of
transparent window that preferences can be seen through, while the
preferences carry all the weight.  Kind of like the bulk magnetization in a
ferromagnet is not a "different" thing that "supervenes" on all the
microscopic magnetic moments and forces them into coordination: rather the
bulk magnetization is nothing more than a summary statistic for the
microscopic magnetizations, and really and truly _nothing_ more or less than
the aggregate of them, and hence an epiphenomenon of
them-all-taken-together. In contrast, all of Nick's epiphenomena are actual,
independent, real properties, and the discussion then branches off in a
different direction of who or what does or doesn't consider them
consequential.  That to me seems more of a contrast of salient vs. ancillary
actual properties, rather than fundamental versus epi or purely apparitional
phenomena.

But who knows.  I guess it depends on what problem you want to solve, what
count as useful categorizations.

Eric

On Aug 16, 2020, at 6:40 AM, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

The quote in the subject line was (is?) a slogan that Massachusetts egg
farmers offered in Massachusetts shoppers trying to get them to buy their
eggs. It came with a ditty which, if you call me up, I will happily sing for
you.   The back story is that the factory egg producers in neighboring NY
used chickens that produced white eggs.  Like as not, if you were eating a
white egg in MA you were eating an egg that had been shipped in from NY,
hence longer in transit.  So, if the campaign were successful, shoppers
would seek out brown eggs because of their color.  Brownness in  eggs would
be their cue for purchase. If the campaign worked, the freshness would
become epiphenonmenal with respect to their selection criteria.  From the
point of view of Massachusetts egg-producers, the brownness of the eggs was
epiphenomenal.  All they cared about is whether the eggs sold in MA were
from MA This would of course break down if NY farmers started using chickens
that laid brown eggs or Massachusetts farmers started storing eggs before
shipping them.  

At Friday's meeting, my mentors urged me to get off the "epiphenomenon"
kick.  I suppose I could instead use the language of semeiotics.  [Pause for
moaning in the distance.]  In this case we could say that the producers were
trying to make brownness a sign of value in eggs.  This works for two quite
distinct reasons:  it works for the consumer because the brown is a sign of
local and local is a sign of fresh; it works for the producers because brown
is a sign of eggs that come from their farms.  

Instead of semiotic language, we could use the language of intension and
extension.  [More anguished groans] The marketing campaign works  because
although the intensions of the choices of the two agents are different,
these intensions are both part of the extension of brown eggs in
Massachusetts.  

Note also that the slogan is an example of powers and perils of abduction.
The sloganeer first abduces that brown eggs are local and from that category
(local eggs) deduces that the eggs are fresh.  The two steps in the
abduction/deduction process are 

These eggs are brown; local eggs are brown; these eggs are local;

Local eggs are fresh; these [brown] eggs are local; these [brown] eggs are
fresh.  

The point (to me) is that there is a very simple thread underlying all of
these ways of talking about natural selection phenomena.  Could all this
baroque verbiage be reduced to a simple formula?  

Years ago I wrote a
<https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239787151_A_system_for_describing_
bird_song_units>  paper that reduced the terminology of bird song down to
three operations and 5 levels of organization.  In short, the paper showed
that while  scientists had been using several dozen terms, they had, along,
only been talking about three different sorts of thing.  That is the sort of
reduction I would like to do on all this talk of epiphenomena, intension,
extension, function, purpose, cue, side-effect, spandrel, exaptation, blah,
blah-blah, and blah-blah-blah. 

Thanks for allowing me to think in your space and on your time. 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

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Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> 

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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