[FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

Tue Dec 8 16:49:56 EST 2020

For what it's worth, Frank, it's hard for me to even imagine you being
abusive to anyone, let alone a friend like Nick.

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 2:45 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is not about lumbago but may not be of general interest.  Please read
> a little and then stop if it is not a topic that you care about.
>
> I feel like writing a little about the history of my friendship with Nick
> in response to the accusation that I was abusive to him.  During the first
> year of my studies in the PhD program in psychology at Carnegie Mellon I
> took a course in cognitive processes.  One of the themes of that course was
> the failure of behaviorism.  That approach was described to us as an early
> 20th century effort to explain all behavior in terms of learning and that
> the result was a realization that that was not possible.  After a  year I
> became frustrated with the uncertainties and ambiguitied of psychology and
> I left that program and went into a PhD program in math and computer
> science.
>
>
> When I met Nick he told me he was a radical behaviorist I asked him what
> he meant by that.  And my recollection is that he said that he thought that
> people don't have minds or consciousness and that they infer their feelings
> and beliefs from their behavior.  I found this to be anathema because to me
> my consciousness is the first thing I know and the only thing I know with
> certainty.  Nick said aha you're a Cartesian in a way that implied that he
> could dismiss my ideas on topic of consciousness for example. After
> extensive arguments my interpretation is that we gave up on the topic.
>
> We played many games of chess got together with our wives and friends and
> generally had an enjoyable friendship.  We cooperated on the Santa Fe
> Complex project and we both attended friam reliably and for many years. I
> attended a seminar that he organized in which we focused on the book
> Feelings by James Laird, a colleague of Nick's at Clark University.  That
> book argues that we know our feelings by observing our own behavior a
> position that I found odd but I read the book. I usually gave Nick a ride
> to St John's every Friday morning which gave us an opportunity to visit
> privately before joining the meeting.
>
> Before the alleged abuse Nick had told me that he had a negative covid
> test and was waiting the results of the more rigorous test.  He then
> mentioned Bonnet's Syndrome and I wondered how a person who doesn't believe
> in mind explains hallucinations so I asked him.  I knew he had been feeling
> badly but he did not say that he was suffering from Covid-19 nor from
> Bonnet's Syndrome.  Maybe the latter was implicit in his raising the
> topic.  If so, I apologize again.
>
> Nick my remember some of the events I describe differently.
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:20 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Colleaugues,
>>
>>
>>
>> There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we
>> should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list
>> become drowned in laments about lumbago.  In retrospect,  I wish I had
>> informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the
>> attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any
>> who would persue the matter further.
>>
>>
>>
>> I tried, unsuccessfully,  to bridge to the less personal topic to
>> Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me
>> philosophically.  Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with
>> psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming.  The
>> enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex
>> structures, and  blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable
>> transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist.  Where the hell does the
>> information come from?
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my
>> brain.  I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of
>> you are.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
>> To: friam at redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your
>> words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how
>> abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims
>> take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply
>> joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the
>> rest.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>
>> > I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning,
>> and so more absurd than abusive.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>>
>> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
>>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM
>>
>> > To: friam at redfish.com
>>
>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery
>>
>> >
>>
>> > It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on
>> possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the
>> habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify
>> the habit as abusive.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>
>> >> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies.  I am
>> hoping that you didn't find it so.  Marcus hasn't been privy to the
>> hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over
>> the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>>
>>
>>
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