[FRIAM] question for pragmatists and Piercians among us

[Frank Wimberly]

Peirce

---
Frank C. Wimberly, PhD
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 8:59 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:

> Hi Glen,
>
> Your analysis is excellent but the post is missing what is actually an
> important bit of information re: my quest that Nick would likely recall but
> is not in the post. I am interested in whether or not various approaches to
> epistemology are applicable to "knowledge" obtained from mystical and/or
> hallucinogenic experiences.
>
> This makes my "feint" a little less of one and my conclusion that Pierce
> probably offers little of assistance less of a provocation.
>
> I used to think that Pierce had a bit of the mystic in his work, but
> increasingly doubt it.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, at 4:21 PM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
> > If I read this post with a little empathy, it seems very provocative,
> > indeed. Good job.
> >
> > You start by striking a posture of checking your "in your own words"
> > with Nick's. But you end with the suggestion that Pierce's work has
> > nothing to offer in understanding what knowledge is, etc. And you
> > obviously understand that Nick believes Pierce DOES offer at least some
> > assistance in that effort.
> >
> > If you were in a physical fight, this would be a *feint*, where you
> > pretend to check your own words against Nick with your right hand. But
> > then quickly punch him in the kidney with your left.
> >
> > An authentic attempt to steel-man why Nick might believe Pierce can
> > contribute to your effort might consist of identifying, for example,
> > how establishing the truth of one's (or many's) conception of an object
> > (which you admit Pierce helps with) might *indirectly* contribute to
> > understanding the existence of those target objects. Personally, it's
> > not clear to me that Pierce's words, themselves, help much in that
> > regard. But his intellectual descendants' words *do* help, John Woods
> > for me. But maybe others for you.
> >
> > On 2/20/20 12:54 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> > > Thanks for the response. I think you answered my questions but,
> because your answers seem to confirm a conclusion I came to prior to the
> answers, I need to check if I have it correct.
> > >
> > > The key issue, for me is in question 4 and your answer ...
> > >
> > >> 4- If we had a "consensus" enumeration of plausible effects does our
> "conception of the object" have any relation to the ontology of the object?
> > >>
> > >> */[NST===>] I don’t think so.  Increasing the number of people who
> think that “unicorn” means “a horse with a narwhale horn on his forehead”
> has no implications for the existence or non existence of unicorns./*
> > >>
> > >
> > >  ... which is the reason that I asked the followup question about
> naturalized epistemology (NE).
> > >
> > > NE comes from W.V.O. Quine and advocates replacing traditional
> approaches for understanding knowledge with empirically grounded approaches
> ala the natural sciences — how knowledge actually forms and is used in the
> World. A subset would be about what knowledge must an agent form and hold
> in order to survive; which sounds related to evolutionary epistemology.
> > >
> > > The epistemology of Pierce and traditional philosophers of knowledge
> is deemed, like mathematics, to be divorced from common sense
> understandings of meaning and truth. I.e. Pierce's system (logic?) can tell
> us whether or not we have a truthful conception of an object, but nothing
> further. It cannot tell us that Donald "is," let alone that he is an "x."
> > >
> > > Alas, I seems I must abandon the hope that Pierce can offer assistance
> in my quest to understand what knowledge is, means for obtaining it, and
> how we know if we have it.
> >
> > --
> > ☣ uǝlƃ
> >
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>
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