[FRIAM] A longer response to Dave's question

[Sarbajit Roy]

Nick

1. Since Christ has never been proved to have existed, it seems to me (as a
non-psychologist) those consuming his 'blood' religiously appear as
victims/participants of group mass delusions reinforced by their regular
shared consumption of a narcotic in a controlled environment replete with
symbols to reinforce their delusion.

2. Now to your more important question for us outside the USA.  "*Is Trump
a proto-dictator?  What are the consequences in experience of believing
that he is?  What does that belief cause us to expect in him. *"
In my view, and in the *view of many non-Americans*
<https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/opinion/taliban-afghanistan-war-haqqani.html>,
it is the nation of USA collectively which is the tyrannical dictatorship,
and it is quite irrelevant who heads it (symbolically), because all US
Presidents carry on the same acts of raining bombs from the sky on those
who disagree with US policies or the US' aforesaid mass delusion called
Christianity.

Sarbajit Roy
Brahma University

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 10:31 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Geez, Dave,
>
>  There's an awful lot here.  Do you mean to take the hardest case?  A
> person?  And particularly a person who has been so much in all our faces
> that it's hard for most of us to think of him rationally, if at all?
>
>  Let's take a simpler example.  An example that Peirce takes is
> transubstantiation, the idea that in ritual of the mass the communion wine
> becomes the blood of Christ.  Once consecrated, is the communion "beverage"
> wine or blood?  Let's say we disagree on that point.  We both see that it's
> a red liquid in a chalice, on which basis we jump to different
> conclusions.  From the properties or redness and liquidness that the
> substance in the chalice shares with both blood and wine, you abduce that
> it is wine, I abduce that it is blood.  So far, we stand equal. But now the
> chalice is brought to our lips.  For me, (forgive me, Catholics, for I know
> not what I say) I feel momentarily cleansed of my sins, uplifted.  Since
> part of my conception of Christ's blood is that if I drank some of it I
> would feel cleansed and uplifted, I conclude that it is indeed, Christs'
> blood.  You, on the other hand, experience the flat, sour taste of
> inexpensive wine, feel no uplift whatsoever, and conclude that the chalice
> contains wine.  We are still on equal footing.
>
>  But now the science begins.  We whisk away the stuff in the chalice to
> the laboratory.  As a preliminary, each of us is asked to list in their
> entirety all the effects of our conception.  We are being asked to
> *deduce* from the categories to which we have *abduced*, the consequences
> of our abductions  They are numerous, but to simply the discussion, lets
> say each of us lists five.  I say, if it is Christ's blood, then I should
> feel transformed when drinking it, and then I pause.  The scientists also
> pause, pencils in hand, and I have to go on.  Well, in addition to its
> red-liquidity,  I say, it should be slightly salty-sweet to taste, be thick
> on the tongue, curdle when heated, sustain life of somebody in need of a
> transfusion, etc.  So we do the tests, and the  results are yes, no, no,
> no, no.  The scientists now turn to you and you say, it should, as well as
> red and liquid, be sour, thin on the tongue, intoxicating in large amounts,
> produce a dark residue when heated, etc..  So, the tests come out yes, yes,
> yes, yes, yes.
>
>  So, is it really blood or really wine?  Well, that of course depends on
> one’s priorities.  If the sole criterion for a red fluid being Christ’s
> blood is that it produces in one person, Nick Thompson, a sense of
> cleansing, then the fact that it doesn’t pass any of the other tests for
> blood will make no difference.  I can assert that that Christ’s blood is a
> very special sort of blood that cleanses the spirit of Nick Thompson, but
> does none of the other things that blood does.  Indeed, I might assert that
> anything the priest handed me in the chalice, once duly consecrated, would
> be Christ’s blood.   The idea that it “works for me” makes it “Christ’s
> blood for me and that’s all that matters.  And if I could bring a regiment
> of Spanish soldiers with spears to friam, and have them insist that you
> drink from the chalice and feel cleansed, many of you might begin to agree
> with me.
>
>  This is the view of pragmatism that James has been accused of, but it is
> definitely NOT the view that Peirce held.  If the position is, “whatever
> the officiant says is christs blood is christ’s blood by definition”, then,
> Piece would say the position is either
>
> Meaningless or false.  It might be meaningless, because there is no
> possible world in which it could be false.  Or it might be false, because
> our best guess as scientists is  that in the very long run, in the
> asymptote of scientific inquiry, our best scientific guess is that the
> contents of the chalice will be agreed upon to be wine.
>
>  Again, let me apologize for my ignorant rendition of Catholic ritual.  It
> IS the example that Peirce takes, but I now see that that is probably a
> poor excuse.  Peirce was, after all, a protestant, and one with many
> prejudices, so it would not surprise me if he was anti-catholic and himself
> chose the example in a mean-spirited way.  So, be a little careful in how
> you respond.
>
>  Is Trump a proto-dictator?  What are the consequences in experience of
> believing that he is?  What does that belief cause us to expect in him.
> Tim Snyder, in his little book ON TYRANNY, does a very good job of laying
> out the parallels between what is going on in our politics right now and
> what goes on in the early stages of the establishment o a dictatorship.
> Trump is fulfilling many of Snyder’s expectations.  Whether Trump succeeds
> in establishing a dictatorship or not, I think the long run of history will
> conclude that he is making a stab at it.
>
>  Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
>
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
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