[FRIAM] Murdoch and Trump

Wed Jan 22 10:32:33 EST 2020

This is the hubris that has got us into so much trouble!

On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 1:00 AM Pieter Steenekamp <
pieters at randcontrols.co.za> wrote:

> Yep, I would go for this one. IMO we are involved in a collective process
> where communication, reason, and action are indeed possible and
> flourishing. Sure there are risks, climate change being one but not the
> only one. Humanity is still very fragile and vulnerable to existential
> risks like climate change, a big meteor or comet hitting the earth, a big
> sun flare causing major damage to our electricity distribution networks,
> new very dangerous, and others. The end could come before I finish this
> sentence. But on the positive side if you observe the progress that has
> happened, I am very optimistic that we are on the path towards a better
> future.
> I am a big fan of David Deutsch. Apart from him being part of having
> developed the first quantum computer algorithm (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch%E2%80%93Jozsa_algorithm) , his
> views on infinite progress as per his book The Beginning of Infinity
> resonates very well with me.
> I quote about the book from wikipedia (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beginning_of_Infinity)
> “Deutsch views the Enlightenment of the 18th century as near the beginning
> of an infinite sequence of purposeful knowledge creation. Knowledge here
> consists of information with good explanatory function that has proven
> resistant to falsification. Any real process is physically possible to
> perform provided the knowledge to do so has been acquired. The
> Enlightenment set up the conditions for knowledge creation which disrupted
> the static societies that previously existed. These conditions are the
> valuing of creativity and the free and open debate that exposed ideas to
> criticism to reveal those good explanatory ideas that naturally resist
> being falsified due to their having basis in reality. Deutsch points to
> previous moments in history, such as Renaissance Florence and
> Plato's Academy in Golden Age Athens, where this process almost got
> underway before succumbing to their static societies' resistance to change.”
>
> Pieter
>
> On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 01:05, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>
>> Nick writes:
>>
>> "So, in these sorts of situations, people tend to sort themselves out
>> into Dionysians and Apollonians, the former declaring that we're probably
>>  fucked and we might as well stay warm, run around in our cars, and burn
>> all the coal we can, and the later declaring that we have a chance to get
>> it right and we should take our best shot."
>>
>> How about one step back:  Are we involved in a collective process where
>> communication, reason, and action are possible?   If we are not, then
>> democracy is nothing more than a temporary way to keep the peace and to
>> diffuse a need many have for (a feeling of) agency.  It is a rearrangement
>> of deck chairs because soon the real shit will be coming down.   If all
>> living creatures are just riding a wave, a process unfolding and going
>> wherever it must go, some may recognize they have no control and rationally
>> opt for the Dionysian approach.  Other living things like koalas and
>> kangeroos and polar bears die by the millions, helpless and afraid.   At
>> least the Dionysian gets the luxury of recognizing, "Yep, this is it."  It
>> just depends on what kind of influence *can* work.  At one point the
>> British Empire ruled over a quarter of the world.   Now it isn't even
>> possible to get people to dispose of their plastic bottles properly.  I
>> think the Apollonians better take charge ASAP, if that's what they are
>> going to do.
>>
>> Marcus
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣ <
>> gepropella at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:49 PM
>> *To:* FriAM <friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Murdoch and Trump
>>
>> Nah. I reject the dichotomy. I consider myself both D and an A, but in
>> different domains. And I think it might be reasonable to time slice between
>> A & D. My sister's ex used to say "We play hard and we work hard" ...
>> indicating that they were both D & A, maybe even simultaneously, depending
>> on how you interpret that.
>>
>> The more interesting thing about AGW is whether or not one *must* be a
>> believer or a "skeptic" [†], and nothing in between. As a dyed in the wool
>> agnostic, I neither believe nor am I a "skeptic", from gun control to
>> abortion to AGW. I also don't like Britney Spears' music. But if she showed
>> up at my door and asked me to ... oh, I don't know ... create a
>> visualization package for her music, I would definitely do it, which would
>> mean listening to her music a LOT for days on end. You don't have to agree
>> with a mission in order to contribute to the mission.
>>
>> So, it seems to me to be *unreasonable* to run around complaining about
>> how so many people are AGW believers. So what? If you don't want to work on
>> the problem, go work on something else. It's just weird how the "skeptics"
>> are so obsessed. E.g.
>>
>>   https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B8rn_Lomborg
>>
>>
>> [†] In quotes to indicate that many people abuse the term. I am a
>> skeptic, but not a "skeptic" ... if you grok the gist.
>>
>> On 1/21/20 12:17 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>> > While I am "in", it seems to me that a distinction is beginning to
>> evolve here between whether a reasonable person CAN doubt Anthropogenic
>> Global Warming (AGW) and whether such a person SHOULD doubt AGW.   I think
>> reasonable people could argue whether we are in a period of AGW (400yrs), a
>> period of global cooling (11,000 yrs) or a spectacularly fragile and
>> geologically unprecedented period of climate stability (also about
>> 11kyrs).  So, in these sorts of situations, people tend to sort themselves
>> out into Dionysians and Apollonians, the former declaring that we're
>> probably  fucked and we might as well stay warm, run around in our cars,
>> and burn all the coal we can, and the later declaring that we have a chance
>> to get it right and we should take our best shot.  I am, as you all know,
>> with the Apollonians.  We are, after all, the choosing species, the species
>> that can knowingly chart it's own path.  So we “should” choose; in fact, we
>> /will/ chose, even if we only do so by
>> > choosing not to choose.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > But it's clear, now why the debate is so intractable.  The debate
>> between Dionysians and Apollonians has been in progress for centuries, so
>> it's no surprise that we are struggling with it now.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I hear some of you formulating an argument that whether we are D’s or
>> A’s should be determined by the shape of the hazard space.  As a
>> collective, I think we FRIAMMERS are particularly well positioned and
>> qualified to have that discussion, and I hope it will continue.
>>
>> --
>> ☣ uǝlƃ
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
merlelefkoff at gmail.com <merlelefoff at gmail.com>
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20200122/1c547be0/attachment.html>