[FRIAM] Freedom of opinion or fascist trap

Fri Jun 5 15:31:55 EDT 2020

Jochen, thanks for the perspective of Germany. I get the feeling that we
Americans rather abuse the concept of free speech. No action is without
effect, including speech, so my opinion is that people should be
responsible for not just actions, but for what they say and write. If I
express views that I believe other "reasonable" people view as extreme, I
like to acknowledge that my view is at odds with others, but then go on to
express it. This is because of a desire to myself to be a reasonable
person, rather than fear of legal consequences. I get the feeling that, at
least in Western democracies like Germany, people generally act in a more
mature fashion. We yanks tend to take less responsibility for what we say
and do. There is at least some justification for the term "Ugly American".

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 2:07 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:

> Here in Germany we had no freedom of speech during Nazism 1933-1945 and
> during Soviet Communism 1961-1989 in the East. If you dared to criticize
> the wrong persons or parties at that time officers from the secret state
> police would came at night, do some enhanced interrogation and put you in a
> concentration camp. In Nazi Germany that was the Gestapo in combination
> with the Stormtroopers from the SS, in the GDR during Communism where Putin
> was a KGB officer the Stasi (state security) would come and imprison you.
> Typical for both systems, communism and Nazism, was ubiquitous propaganda
> for the single-party state and its infallible leaders.
>
> Today the constitution guarantees free speech unless you insult someone.
> Slander is an indictable offense here too. Propaganda has not completely
> vanished, just diversified as various forms of PR, marketing and
> advertising in my opinion. Opinions can turn into propaganda if they become
> one-sided praise for the state and supreme leader. I think that is what the
> NY Times is trying to avoid by presenting multiple opinions.
>
> There are of course extreme opinions that lead to demagoguery and fascism,
> like the opinion that protesters damage law and order although they are
> doing the opposite (chapter 7 in "How fascism works" from Jason Stanley).
> That could be the trap in which the NY Times has stumbled here.
>
> -J.
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Gary Schiltz <gary at naturesvisualarts.com>
> Date: 6/5/20 18:20 (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freedom of opinion or fascist trap
>
> Freedom of speech is a tricky thing. I spent 50 of my 61 years in the USA,
> where it is almost a national religion. It is certainly baked into our
> psyche. It is nonetheless tempered by a variety of laws, most of which
> appeal to Americans' common sense (whether or not we do indeed have much
> common sense is debatable, though my biased view is that we do). The
> quintessential example given as a limit to freedom of speech is yelling
> "fire" in a crowded theatre, causing people to stampede with resultant
> injury or death. US law also penalizes libel (written damage to someone's
> reputation through false statements) and slander (verbal version of libel).
> We also have laws against false advertising.
>
> The interesting thing to me is in the differences by country in the
> interpretation/enforcement of these laws and the attitudes of the people
> toward freedom of speech (I suppose laws feedback to attitudes and vice
> versa). Being nearly a national religion, we Americans feel we have the
> right to say basically whatever we want about anything (I suppose we feel
> speech is simply aural/written expression of our opinions, which we love to
> express, loudly). Paradoxically, we are pretty thin-skinned, and easily
> take offense when we are on the receiving end of such tirades. Our
> attitudes towards governance in general (mostly against) is also baked into
> our psyche.
>
> In Ecuador, slander and libel are taken much more seriously than in the
> USA, both in the culture and the laws. Consequently, people are much more
> reticent about complaining publicly about something. Social media is
> changing this a lot, making it much more common to call politicians corrupt
> (maybe the consequence of having their rights to political dissent squashed
> for a decade under Rafael Correa, now ex-president and indicted criminal on
> the run). But libel (or whatever it is called when it applies to writing
> about a business) is still quite easily prosecuted. I've heard of many
> cases where someone is charged and convicted for simply writing publicly
> (i.e. on social media) about a bad experience they had with a business.
>
> What insights do other folks on the list from different countries besides
> the USA and Ecuador have?
>
> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:10 AM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
>> oh sorry, I overlooked your post. When does an opinion become propaganda?
>> I think this happens when you repeat one-sided opinions. In this sense the
>> NY Times tried to do the right thing, but failed nevertheless :-/
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: uǝlƃ ☣ <gepropella at gmail.com>
>> Date: 6/5/20 16:15 (GMT+01:00)
>> To: FriAM <friam at redfish.com>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freedom of opinion or fascist trap
>>
>>
>> New York Times says senator Tom Cotton's op-ed did not meet editorial
>> standards
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jun/05/new-york-times-says-tom-cotton-opinion-piece-did-not-meet-editorial-standards
>>
>> As I tried to say in my previous post:
>> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/credibility-tp7596748.html
>> The NYT has lost its Op-Ed credibility. For me, Bret Stephens was the
>> trigger. I'd already been miffed that I couldn't simply suspend my
>> subscription for a little while. You have to call them on the phone, which
>> is irritating for someone who doesn't like talking on the phone. So, hiring
>> Stephens was the 2nd justification. And I've considered re-subscribing
>> since their GitHub covid19 data came online. But then the Cotton Op-Ed
>> changed my mind. With their backtracking and now admitting the Cotton Op-Ed
>> was a mistake, I'm more likely to resub before the elections. Their
>> election tools are great.
>>
>> But their credibility has taken a huge hit, however you cut it.
>>
>> On 6/5/20 4:32 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>> > The NY Times op ed from Tom Cotton named "Send in the troops" has
>> caused a bit of a controversy, even inside the NY Times
>> >
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opinion/tom-cotton-protests-military.html
>> >
>> > The NY Times is trying to represent the whole spectrum of politically
>> significant opinions. If they only print opinions that fit to one worldview
>> they are making propaganda. If they publish all kinds of opinions, they may
>> support fascism, authoritarianism or racism.
>> >
>> > How do you solve this dilemma? Did they fall into a trap now because
>> they have supported the rise of fascism by printing this opinion, as Jason
>> Stanley, the author of "How fascism works" says?
>>
>>
>> --
>> ☣ uǝlƃ
>>
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