[FRIAM] millenarianism

[Frank Wimberly]

"It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and
proforma exchange of words, ... that I am blinded its self-evidentness,
incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words."

That's what I used to say to you about consciousness and having an inner
life.

Frank

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:56 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Steve,
>
>
>
> Craven tho it might be, I am going to desert you on this field of battle.
> It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and
> proforma exchange of words, is NOT a mere flapping of gums, that I am
> blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left
> without words.
>
>
>
> You’re on your own, buddy.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:39 AM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism
>
>
>
> uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
>
> The argument I stole from wherever wasn't that talking was a *form* of grooming, but that it *replaced* grooming. Personally, I wouldn't go that far. I'd argue that as soon as we learned to talk, talking became yet-another-sensorimotor-behavior. I.e. talking is in the same category as having sex, punching someone in the face, riding a tandem bicycle, combing lice out of your kid's hair, etc. It's all the same thing.
>
> Well corrected... thanks.
>
> The gripe I have with most people is they reify their "thoughts", give too much primacy to the idea of material-free interaction. Words are nothing *but* flapping gums and banged keys.
>
> I will admit that having learned to type at a very early age (by oldSkool
> standards...14) there is something *like* a visceral satisfaction in
> banging the keys.   When I have forced myself to write longhand (see the
> anecdote about a first grade teacher breaking a ruler on the knuckles) it
> can *also* be viscerally satisfying, especially when using a fountain pen
> on quality paper.   And yet I find "nothing more" hyperbolic.
>
> So, to Marcus' point, talking and punching are equally manipulative. And to Nick's point, talking to oneself can be very satisfying, like shadow boxing. But fighting an *alive* opponent is always more interesting.
>
> Touche' !
>
> What about "dancing"?  My limited experience with Tae Kwon Do peaked
> during sparring which with the *right* opponent/partner felt more like
> Dancing than Fighting.  Similarly with fencing (foil only for me, no sabres
> or broadswords).  Neither felt choreographed.
>
> Some of our threads here feel more like squabbling than "dancing"... not
> quite a melee (usually) even though there are some real free-for-all.
>
> I re-submit my previous question of the role/value/import of "an
> audience/readership" participation.
>
> SS> In contrast on this (now bent) thread,  Marcel Duchamp stated
> (authoritatively?!):
>
>  “All in all, the creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the
> spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering
> and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to
> the creative act,”
>
> SS> Many creatives (visual artists, writers, and more obviously performing
> artists) have agreed with this...   the audience "participation" if not
> "response" is key to their "completion"...  I don't know if this maps onto
> "closure" in CS, but maybe.
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/6/20 3:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> Glen has suggested variously that he doesn't believe in communication, and that in humans "dialog is a form of social grooming" (I stand prepared to be corrected for mis-apprehending/stating Glen's positions).
>
>
>
> I'm inclined to agree with him somewhat, though I DO believe some of our chatter is at least an *attempt to communicate*.   So is that *all* we are doing when we blather away here?  Or perhaps just Bombastic Careening (nod to Jon)?  Mental Masturbation?   Dominance Aggression?  Random Neuromuscular Spasms?
>
>
>
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-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
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