[FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Wed Oct 28 15:37:28 EDT 2020

Scratching oneself?  I'm not trying to be a pain.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 1:32 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> If one allows stygmergy as a form of downward causation, I can understand
> it.  So I guess I am looking for the simplest kind of example of self
> assembly: i.e., where something of a higher order improves itself by
> improving the arrangement of its parts.  Or places constraints on its parts
> to be good for itself. There may be a thousand examples.  I just can’t
> think of one that doesn’t involve group selection.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2020 1:16 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats
>
>
>
> I'm not Marcus but a classical example is mental events causing physical
> events.  Note the use of mental language.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 1:12 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Marcus,
>
>  can't claim to understand you fully, here, but your use of the word,
> sovereignty, made me think you might have something to contribute to a
> quandary I found myself in recently.  I was on a zoom with a bunch of
> people.  First they talked about emergence, and I figured I understand
> that.  Wimsatt: a property is emergent if it is a property of a whole that
> depends on the order or arrangement of the parts.  So, the ability of
> sticks to bear weight depends  on their arrangement as triangles.   So far,
> so good.  But then the began to talk about "downward" causation, and I
> realized that I did not know, nor have I ever known, what people mean by
> "downward" causation.  Do you have some simple models of it in mind that
> even I could understand?
>
> Nick
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 9:17 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats
>
> Using statistical mechanics to inspire a stable and universal functional
> form that evolves in time is one way to make a model of social systems.
>  But even with that for model of the physical world, there are many
> possible models for control systems that could layer on top of it.   If
> there are no shared concept types in these different models, there's
> nothing to do but go back to simulating the physics to determine what could
> happen next.   Simulating these physics takes energy that is of no
> discernable value to users of any one model so at some point there will be
> conflict over that energy.    The Libertarian claims that there is
> something in common between the users of these models, but it is nothing
> more than story that serves her purposes.   There is no reason not to
> violate her sovereignty if the reward/risk is acceptable.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of ? glen
> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 7:18 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats
>
> Well, sure. But the assumptions and simplifications are piling up fast.
> With anarcho-capitalism, I was trying to suggest a governing system that
> relies on as few assumptions as possible. And my sense is that social
> democracy relies on more assumptions (like the existence of stable
> functional forms).
>
> On September 14, 2020 6:13:33 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
> >It depends whether you think of "static" as some circumscribed state or
> >"static" as a fixed functional form.  (The latter still allowing for a
> >dynamical system.)   The appropriation/application of the notion of a
> >"phase transition" would probably argue for the fixed functional form
> >on the basis of physics.
>
> --
> glen ⛧
>
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