[FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

[Gary Schiltz]

I don’t know who Larry Elder is, but I believe he is incorrect. The right
wing of today in the USA believes, or at least says, that liberals are both
misguided and really, really bad people. God told them so.

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:40 AM Pieter Steenekamp <pieters at randcontrols.co.za>
wrote:

> Steve,
>
> Your "The Wrong (formerly Right) Wing in the US"
> reminds me of the quote by Larry Elder:
> "Conservatives consider liberals well-intentioned, but misguided. Liberals
> consider conservatives not only wrong, but really, really bad people."
>
>
> P
>
> On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 at 06:06, Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
>> Jochen -
>>
>> Thanks for the original article reference.   It lead me to seek out and
>> find another interesting /relevant introductory/survey article:
>>
>>     Stability of Democracies:  A Complex Systems Perspective
>> <https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6404/aaeb4d>
>>
>> In regards to your original question, my own biased intuition is that it
>> is a vicious (rather than virtuous) cycle.   Our various corrupt leaders
>> with notable presidents such as Harding (Teapot Dome), Nixon (Watergate++)
>> and DJT-45 (Tax, Emoluments, Election, Sexual Misconduct, etc... many left
>> to be exposed I suspect) definitely undermine the confidence in and
>> commitment to our imperfect Democracy, driving it further away from any
>> ideal it might aspire to.
>>
>> I personally wasted half of my voting life in reaction to Nixon and the
>> next several cycles following.   Watching the shenanigans of 2000 and then
>> 2016 and worse 2020, I expect there will be entire new generations as
>> disaffected as I was.  It is hard to maintain a legitimate participatory
>> Democracy with that level of disaffection and confusion.
>>
>> The Wrong (formerly Right) Wing in the US seems nearly dead-set on
>> leveraging this to the extreme.   In hindsight, the rhetoric of the Wrong
>> Wing has been playing at this for my entire adult life, but it is acutely
>> worse this past 1-5 years.   From Trump's embrace of nearly every right
>> wing dictator he could find to Tucker Carlson in Hungary this week, it
>> seems to be happening entirely in plain sight!
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>>
>> On 8/8/21 2:09 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>>
>> Good example. Like the USA South Africa was a former British colony. And
>> both countries had to struggle with racism in the past. But the development
>> of democracy was different. The rise and fall of democracy is an
>> interesting topic
>>
>> https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691177465/the-decline-and-rise-of-democracy
>>
>> I wonder what the essential factor is: do immoral presidents cause the
>> collapse of democracy in a country by undermining democratic institutions
>> or is it the other way round: the economy (and therefore the country) is
>> already broken and institutions are weak, which enables immoral
>> authoritarian rulers to grab power? Or a combination of both?
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Pieter Steenekamp <pieters at randcontrols.co.za>
>> <pieters at randcontrols.co.za>
>> Date: 8/8/21 20:26 (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure
>>
>> Well, I'm from South Africa, and we have been close to moral collapse and
>> IMO that could have led to our state failing.
>>
>> If you ask ten South Africans you'll get maybe twenty opinions, below is
>> just my very brief view of what has been and what is happening in South
>> Africa.
>>
>> South Africa became democratic in 1994 with Nelson Mandela the president.
>> With him at the helm we had the moral high ground. His immediate successor
>> Thabo Mbeki also did well. But between 2009 and 2017 Jacob Zuma was our
>> president. He looted very seriously from the state and unfortunately under
>> him many people in all state organisations started to also loot. The
>> corruption became very deep. He is in jail now.
>>
>> We now have Cyril Ramaphosa as president and it's anybody's guess, but at
>> least I'm very confident that Cyril is leading us again towards the moral
>> high ground and away from state failure.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 19:18, Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>
>>> This paper from last year argues that moral collapse and state failure
>>> are linked. Would you agree?
>>> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpos.2020.568704/full
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>>
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