[FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Thu Aug 26 10:29:27 EDT 2021

Pieter
It *was* very bad, but it seems that with 70% of the population having
being infected , some kind of herd immunity prevails, at least for now.
https://theprint.in/health/4th-sero-survey-finds-2-of-3-indians-with-covid-antibodies-but-still-avoid-crowds-icmr-warns/699600/

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:43 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
pieters at randcontrols.co.za> wrote:

> Thanks for the reply Sarbajit, so what you're saying is the situation is
> much worse in India than what the official numbers indicate.
>
> Pieter
>
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 10:48, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I can give you some more context citing my personal experience
>>
>> I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex in New
>> Delhi, with 90 apartments and about 400 residents. About 25% of the
>> apartments have retired doctors from India's premier hospitals, and we're
>> mostly educated professionals well clued in to take precautions..
>>
>> In the first COVID wave  which peaked in Sept 2020 we had 2 infections
>> and no deaths. In the second wave which peaked in May 2021, we had about 75
>> known infections (of which 25 needed hospitalization) and 8 COVID deaths in
>> my apartment complex alone. Similar numbers happened in the surrounding
>> apartment complexes. My father-in-law who stays in a similar apartment
>> complex a mile away was hospitalised for 10 days with COVID this May at the
>> peak but luckily pulled through at age 82 years. He only got a hospital bed
>> because he was Indian Army while other patients were being turned away in
>> droves before my eyes.
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56 PM Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Pieter
>>>
>>> The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate. We can
>>> *conservatively* multiply the number of infections by x10 and the
>>> number of deaths by x3.
>>> While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the urban
>>> areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting and people were
>>> dying like flies.
>>> There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in the
>>> rural areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to 12% of the
>>> population in certain states.
>>>
>>> My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years, was the
>>> only doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely populated state
>>> because the regular doctors had either fled or died of COVID. He
>>> expired 2 months ago, of COVID, while still in the saddle attending
>>> patients.
>>>
>>> Sarbajit
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
>>> pieters at randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sarbajit,
>>>>
>>>> When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high
>>>> population density. But according to
>>>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M
>>>> population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950
>>>> deaths/1M population.
>>>>
>>>> Further, according to
>>>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ India seems
>>>> to be dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has been
>>>> dropping since May and seems to be staying low.
>>>>
>>>> My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many
>>>> other countries.
>>>>
>>>> Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early
>>>> treatment use of ivermectin in India.
>>>> Refer to:
>>>>
>>>> https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
>>>>
>>>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f
>>>>
>>>> https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link
>>>> between the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India?
>>>>
>>>> Pieter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
>>>>> perspective on this from India.
>>>>>
>>>>> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections
>>>>> and deaths after the USA.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me,
>>>>> called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
>>>>> clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually
>>>>> practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
>>>>> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
>>>>> have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they
>>>>> cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
>>>>> before microscopes were invented.
>>>>>
>>>>> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin
>>>>> children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned
>>>>> by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine
>>>>> systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director
>>>>> General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the
>>>>> extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved"
>>>>> before we used them.
>>>>>
>>>>> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the
>>>>> ones who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance,
>>>>> and also because India's government wanted them to die.
>>>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarbajit Roy
>>>>> New Delhi, India
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore <
>>>>> gil.densmore at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the
>>>>>> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is
>>>>>> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
>>>>>> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that
>>>>>> made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what
>>>>>> it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the
>>>>>> vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds
>>>>>> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the
>>>>>> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be
>>>>>> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt.
>>>>>> Which is a shame.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd
>>>>>>> have sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.
>>>>>>>  It must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict
>>>>>>> is here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the
>>>>>>> doctors.  If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc.
>>>>>>> simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there
>>>>>>> doesn't need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people
>>>>>>> getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.
>>>>>>> No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
>>>>>>> To: friam at redfish.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is
>>>>>>> largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious
>>>>>>> with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or
>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever
>>>>>>> walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change
>>>>>>> you suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps,
>>>>>>> re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that
>>>>>>> anytime soon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Taking a look at this site:
>>>>>>> https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
>>>>>>> it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I
>>>>>>> thought. The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge
>>>>>>> in covid patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>> > Will you consent to a vaccine?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get
>>>>>>> lost.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>>>>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
>>>>>>> > To: friam at redfish.com
>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid
>>>>>>> patients. (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid.
>>>>>>> But I'm sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular
>>>>>>> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to
>>>>>>> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning with
>>>>>>> our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer
>>>>>>> wasn't high enough.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer
>>>>>>> size, and take care of both covid patients and regular people.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>> >> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't
>>>>>>> let them in.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> >> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>>>>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
>>>>>>> >> To: friam at redfish.com
>>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a
>>>>>>> normal, everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's
>>>>>>> with us or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to
>>>>>>> such tests.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they
>>>>>>> antifa are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the
>>>>>>> fascists dig in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa
>>>>>>> more committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the
>>>>>>> fascists out there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is
>>>>>>> dead.) But as a result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty
>>>>>>> comfortably.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our
>>>>>>> attention on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow
>>>>>>> beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and
>>>>>>> the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>> >>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug
>>>>>>> tests.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>>>>>>>
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