[FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Thu Aug 26 16:31:25 EDT 2021

Two thoughts on your below, Jochen, which seem to me to belong in the list along with what you have:

1. If we don’t care what they called it — “element” — then the question is, were the classical Greeks as right as one could be at the time?  We now use the word “element” to refer to a Mendeleev position within the atomic theory.  But that doesn’t mean it was anything like that for them.  If they meant by “element” that “you can cut it finer and finer, and its properties seem to remain the same”, then that is the definition of the independence of intensive from extensive state variables that defines the large-deviation limit, and for equilibrium systems, the meaning of phase.  I have not met a Greek scholar with the chops to give me a Gian-Carlo Rota level of analysis of what a word “meant” to a given people at a given time.  I actually would like to know what is the best possible handling of this question.

2. The second is heritability.  To say a system wants a partition into phases doesn’t say anything about whether that partition should make use of hereditary lineages.  Phases are instantaneously defined things in matter, so components take on whatever phase behavior they do based on how things are there, at that moment.  But cf. Lewontin: there is a big difference between just-any variation in state, and a variation that is heritable. 

Here the question of social mobility as a specific character of cultural development enters.  Even if you knew, at a fully-moden level, that genetics doesn’t transmit very many socially-consequential aptitudes — so kids of master chess players may or may not have the innate talent to allow their top level of development to stand out the same as the parent’s did, compared to anybody else with the same environmental support — you would still admit that children are raised in large part by their parents.  So, many things that contribute to social capabilities — not only skills training, but habituation, social contacts, relations, etc. — are transmitted by the parents.  To allow a “comparative advantage” in Ricardo’s sense to contribute some level of productive enhancement but to be based on mainly inborn proclivity and preference, and not mainly on parental resources, you need to provide quite a strong social support culture to allow kids to find out what their upper limit of ability and fulfillment will be, across the vast range of domains where they might find it.  

It makes hereditary caste comprehensible as a historical regularity, though disappointing if you believe it would be possible for a society to offer its people specialized development not pinned to parental transmission.

Probably where societies are at the moment is somewhere in-between .  Of course parents set up kids to have an easier shot at some things than at others.  But the parts where a genetic marker isn’t being used by the society to lock in castes could still allow reasonable mobility on timescales of a couple of generations.

Eric

> On Aug 27, 2021, at 1:02 AM, Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
> 
> I am reading "The Origins of Political Order" from Francis Fukuyama at the moment and one thing I noticed is that the 4 classes from India's caste system actually represent the division into religion (Brahmins, priestly class), military (Kshatriyas, warrior class), economy (Vaishyas, merchant class) and others (Shudras, manual workers)
> https://www.dw.com/en/indias-caste-system-weakened-but-still-influential/a-39718124 <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.dw.com%2fen%2findias-caste-system-weakened-but-still-influential%2fa-39718124&c=E,1,FNqiweHoaommSYW9rqj6Y8rKhvg1d7O1K7U2HuH7f4CgPHqXxikQ0Ae365lMNbxb6fsFoJgeHvXTMwui-NhmwVVG8nwmvG61daSZ-fdsumdUbUUxeCw9qQ,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
> 
> The Greek philosopher Empedocles argued the world is made of four elements - fire, earth, air and water. There are no such elements, but there are indeed four phases of matter - plasma, solid, gas and liquid.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(matter)
> 
> This means that the ancient Greeks and the ancient Indians were not completely wrong. Can a "worker" or "slave" class be seen as an essential phase or subsystem too? I believe yes. Slavery in ancient times was in my opinion a precursor of employment. Proto-companies needed cheap employees before employees or economies existed. The "class" of slaves served as proto-employees, in ancient Egypt, ancient Greece and ancient Rome. A dream for their proto-employer, a nightmare for them. I guess "Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents" from Isabel Wilkerson which Nick mentioned makes a similar point.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Discontents
> 
> -J.
> 
> 
> 
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com>
> Date: 8/26/21 04:43 (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
> Hi
> 
> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) perspective on this from India.
> 
> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and deaths after the USA.
> 
> However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even before microscopes were invented. 
> 
> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used them.
> 
> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also because India's government wanted them to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563 <https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563>
> 
> Sarbajit Roy
> New Delhi, India
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com <mailto:gil.densmore at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
> 
> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.
> 
> Taking a look at this site: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours <https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours>
> it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.
> 
> 
> On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > Will you consent to a vaccine?  
> > 
> > Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> > To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> > 
> > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.
> > 
> > The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take care of both covid patients and regular people.
> > 
> > 
> > On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them in.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
> >> To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >>
> >> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.
> >>
> >> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
> >>
> >> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.
> 
> 
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
> 
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,jHcjfuMrJs2Zhs5dcEOzlxBxIoWhyaDhRMX5LYhuUrZUJRbjaNrpwpt86u1QENAQabrLMT0LCxQaFbwIqCygCqJONoosJ5uIWgJJLpHw&typo=1> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,5nkGUe2eG0tVzcf7AvupT6e5NEoDBpEFdCVj8YBKn5s1ULpng_oncWbWwP1dNm0f9WUuuryvV8p9MoGPnTGrzkHbLYH4qJTzRXbzKzx9q_TRXLUIcEKChAqPv4k,&typo=1>
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,NA6OzUVuy88V--HcEU6Tbm-Dtg1QW7B72_2oPduUOScc5-56y0VDyMziMQLy9ClbA3gfzwZjVeI-gjMTy1gAIq0EuBgm5cll9-1fVXkD&typo=1>
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,PpLCD2CS3VjE2tFaRkSi4deIxmK9IApEMIJ16zntDCGkpDl12p6BWupN80f21NEF57o6TQJW2PFREvlxDWw9CZ1EcYXpEhOuQ-cYTlsi80BricbpdVWxRg8b&typo=1>
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,pSvYKOfHN1THJwt18Z5d9BOl0EERSzreAj2nGEqMqmfhxuLkNBQ42Nfx0pNaFjK7uy43BahEITeTC9vj9Uzevogvo8fo6bdL-3vxM-EB&typo=1>
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,2lELCoq73kPSdD9BzEm0_AlgTgdJ5ihhuwsutzfn0SQwwoaJ39GwhATV_3v3ZSn3Uja00mFRUSbd6TuNcBFp7abPS-ZPW_8GyqX60xhebGIGBTP90Fz9Nw,,&typo=1>
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,65x4ESchdsAIJdkxzL8Y4AqtUJ8y8LQ1WKit6QGy87EiB9f3NTujezTxq4yEHl6mSfIdA0ejX9G-70GhpeR6M4CH0kT2JwFDXGQg23LR1eAMfxH3&typo=1>
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,0h3ia3IQGnz9jFI8Teu_Htz-GMExdCj6yAd1RcCaTllWDAsfWQBUeTbtFw6uPCkf6FHmXC3dz9qKEYdEHsYugVIHbUfPEezb5EAuYcOPMZVTYcX0J0a6lwtxFg,,&typo=1>
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,DgJULLDPeule1Mn33Xpim2Hs1e3WmA0w8_--bryEw1o6ISbEWdfbfH_Stt2xP3sJUMWqi9gSvpI1FchUGIXspPVBuSHAs6I7sVuMdxjN&typo=1>
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,0zG3w8oHYxxC2WJs643ouP_71mR9F8q3yUjzaWGWc2sEtdMacmJcOfQ6YrDswuYpoFuuCv-RWfgeHRqK0V3Mt_Fg0z8_scQJ42IhM_xlvwnF1JYdcrB8qZRGg5fo&typo=1
> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,b7uiIQBW6UCbeH_j0L6By9n2mC8f5oDbUWZ6nRtkcqHxemvQtfXMGQgOB2dntnNYstdiqvmu1ngkHLaMrIQlIUO8-p0bjR1NJhgqpntBwhgkoeHJSI4,&typo=1
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20210827/31d356f3/attachment.html>