[FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Fri Aug 27 16:29:40 EDT 2021
> A photo of me, my oldest cousin, and my grandfather taken at that time
> (WW2). That's a railroad boxcar used as a temporary residence for
> transient railroad workers.
My parents lived in a 50s "canned ham" style camp trailer for most of
the first 18 months of my life. My father was a junior Forester for the
USFS and the "forest camp" he was assigned to had no family housing
beyond that for the district ranger... the single men lived in
barracks... other married men "commuted" the 60 miles to Flagstaff on
weekends and stayed in the barracks.
My sister still has the small "cowbell" my mother made her wear during
that time so that she didn't have to worry about her wandering off too
far while otherwise occupied with me.
No running water, no bathroom, no electricity... unleaded-gas
lamps/stove... but then my mother (at least) grew up in a farmhouse
without central heating or running water (hand-pumped cistern and an
outhouse) so I suppose this wasn't that much of a hardship.
They had friends who bought a retired boxcar hauled to a location in
what later became north Flagstaff to live in. When I lived there
decades later, the boxcar was still there but built entirely around with
a "conventional" house. It may be there to this day.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 1:45 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com
> <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> During WW2, while my father was serving in the Pacific, my mother
> and I lived with her parents in a little village in the mountains
> of rural New Mexico. We lived in a two bedroom house with running
> water but no bathroom. Heat was provided by a wood burning stove
> that was used for cooking as well. There was a battery powered
> console radio. I was between 4 months and 30 months old. I was
> bathed in a galvanized washtub and I remember that. We had no
> shortage of food nor clothing. My grandfather worked for the
> Santa Fe Railroad as a section foreman and had a secure salary. I
> remember being happy but, for the most part, I was oblivious. A
> kid that age isn't happy if the adults, particularly his mother,
> aren't happy. After my mother and I moved away from there after
> the War we visited often until I was five. I remember my
> grandparents enjoying life for the most part.
>
> To live like that today would require me to give up almost
> everything I have. But I feel nostalgic for that time and fond of
> those memories.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 1:23 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> So, of the privileges you enjoy and list, how many would have
> to go away before you life would be no longer “decent”?
>
>
>
> To be honest, Idon’t know what I am fishing for here, but for
> some reason the answer to that question seems important to me.
> I guess, I am thinking that the notion of a decent life, like
> that of a essential worker, hides some caste implications
> within it. That some of us are of a nature that they SHOULD
> be satisfied with less than would satisfy me.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Pieter
> Steenekamp
> *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2021 3:06 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
> Thanks for asking how I would characterize the life I'm
> leading. My life is just great, I'm satisfied with my life. My
> need for food, safety, love and self-esteem are to a large
> degree met. Actually, I would rate myself on the
> self-actualization level on Moslow's hierarchy.
>
> It's not about me, there are many people in South Africa who's
> basic physiological needs like food and safety are not met.
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 20:28, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Pieter,
>
>
>
> If, in your ideal world, their lives are “decent, ” how
> would you characterize the life that you are leading. The
> way you talk sounds a bit like the way we talk about
> “essential” workers here.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Pieter
> Steenekamp
> *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2021 1:49 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"
>
>
>
> Dave wrote /Why this obsession with "equality?"/
>
>
>
> I totally agree. But in South Africa we have a large
> portion of the population that do not have food on the
> table every day and I simply don't think it's right.
>
> So, my view is that instead of obsessing with "equality",
> we should obsess that those on the bottom of the economic
> ladder should at least have decent lives.
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 19:11, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> I think of mathematical abstractions as aspirations.
>
>
>
> Thanks for meeting me on my own ground, here. You
> will recall that my original project was to try and
> discover what the metaphysical foundations might be
> for my strong negative response to the idea that
> castes are tolerable. What MUST I assume in order to
> think as I do. I have for many years suspected that
> the fundamental difference between comfortable BHL’s
> like me and comfortable conservatives is that we
> liberals see our comfort as arising from good luck,
> and they see their comfort as arising from their
> merit. Now, all metaphysics is non-sense, except
> insofar as it explains and encourages an approach to
> other people that is … um …. Good. I think than mine
> encourages me to approach people less wealthy than I,
> not as people deserving of their fate but as people
> who have, in some sense, made me a gift. Thus if
> there is kharma, it should be that the fortunate
> “should” pay for the correction of any absence of
> randomness that intergenerational transfers might
> inflict on the children of the poor.
>
>
>
> I lay this out in this naïve way because I thought it
> might provoke a strong (and perhaps equally naïve)
> reaction from Sarbajit which would make it immediately
> clear what different places we are coming from.
> Sarbajit may not answer, in which case I am left
> having revealed my naivete metaphysics to you bozos
> with all the consequences that must follow.
>
>
>
> Now remember, nobody ever claimed that all [persons]
> are created equal. I think that we all will agree
> that all persons are created equal [ in] and that
> they are endowed … with certain unalienable rights …”
> “– i.e., they should be equal before the law. Our
> differences lie between these two poles. I take the
> “and” seriously, and think that, above and beyond the
> legal rights implied by the “endowment” conveyed by
> the second clause, they have an obligation of
> humbleness and gratitude to all those what have their
> good fortune possible, and that, at the very minimum
> that obligation should be expressed in an overtly
> redistributive tax policy.
>
>
>
> But even if you don’t accept the further implications
> of severing the two clauses in the way that I do, the
> notion of equality before the law demands much more of
> the rich than they currently pay. For instance, when
> J. P. Morgan IX runs over the faithful k-9 companion
> of the homeless Max Morgan and Max decides to sue,
> J.P. can pay the requested amount, including Max’s
> court costs and be done with it. If he decides to
> contest, then both parties should pay into the court
> costs in proportion to their wealth and the lawyers
> should be assigned at random.
>
>
>
> To the extent that the list is laced with
> libertarians, I don’t expect much sympathy from the
> list for any of this. If one thing unites
> libertarians, I would wager, it is the idea that
> people get what they deserve, or at least, that they
> have the right to hang on to whatever they get.
>
>
>
> So, Dave: What is your naïve metaphysics?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of
> *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2021 11:17 AM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"
>
>
>
> OK, curmudgeon and misanthrope that I am, I still must
> ask:
>
>
>
> Why this obsession with "equality?"
>
>
>
> Outside of the abstraction of math, no one thing is
> equal, in any sense, to another, let alone all members
> of a set of things being equal to each other.
>
>
>
> Narrowing our attention to human beings. it has
> already been noted that the dimensions of potential
> inequality are myriad. It would be impossible to
> "equalize" all dimensions simultaneously, so pick one,
> income for example, and equalize on that dimension.
>
>
>
> To what end? What outcome would you expect to see? Why
> would it not be the case that every possible outcome
> would result in persistent "inequalities" because all
> the other dimensions of difference would swamp your
> 'independent variable' of income?
>
>
>
> No two human beings are created equal, let alone all
> "men." (sic) But the unfounded conviction that this
> must be 'true' demands the invention of myth to
> explain why it is not. And those myths are, in my
> opinion, harmful and divisive.
>
>
>
> I agree with Pieter (and probably everyone else on
> this list) that the current state of income inequality
> is evil and untenable. But, I would disagree with any
> means of rectifying the situation that is grounded in
> any kind of myth of individual human "equality."
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, at 1:34 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>
> If you just look at the world then "all [persons]
> are created equal" is just nonsense. What I like
> to focus on is what can we as a society do, and
> what can I personally do to move towards making
> all more equal? It's obviously not practical to
> expect heaven on earth, but IMO the current state
> of inequality is just not acceptable, but that's
> no reason to do nothing. For now I just address
> the first one, what can we as a society do?
>
>
>
> The current state of politics is to a large extent
> driven by ideology and I would like to see a
> movement towards a more practical, and humble
> approach. Like an approach based on the
> philosophy behind the 2019 economic Nobel prize
> winners Banerjee, Duflo and Kremer. Their approach
> to reduce global poverty is experiment-based,
> taken from science.
>
>
>
> I quote from
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2019/10/14/nobel-prize-in-economics-won-by-trio-tackling-global-poverty/
> <https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2019/10/14/nobel-prize-in-economics-won-by-trio-tackling-global-poverty/>
> :
>
> "Their work, which tackles one of humanities most
> pressing issues, is based on the idea that to
> battle poverty, the issues should be broken down
> into smaller pieces and studied via small field
> experiments to answer precise questions within the
> communities who are most affected."
>
>
>
> Another quote:
>
> "Poor people are supposed to be either completely
> desperate or lazy or entrepreneurial but people
> don’t – we don’t try to … understand the deep root
> and interconnected root of poverty." - Esther Duflo
>
>
>
> I don't mind if anybody wants to understand the
> deep root and interconnected root of poverty, it's
> just that I personally, like Esther Duflo, like to
> focus on what to do about it.
>
>
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 05:07,
> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> This is, of course, exactly the opposite of my
> creation myth in which the slate is wiped
> clean after every generation. But it would
> explain a belief system in which well-being
> was the deserved reward of having lived well
> in a previous life.
>
>
>
> While I am here, please let me point out that
> “equal in law” seems a rather constrained
> understanding “born equal”, given especially
> that the passage goes on to add equality in
> law (well rights, actually) as an additional
> endowment.
>
>
>
> “… and they are endowed by their Creator by
> certain rights, including life, liberty, and
> the pursuit of happiness.
>
>
>
> Where is John Dobson when we need him. Could
> somebody please forward this note to him. I
> don’t have his email address here with me.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Nick
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf
> Of *Prof David West
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:17 PM
>
> *To:* friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are
> created equal"
>
>
>
> Purely from my academic understanding of the
> subject; the Nick that is, at this moment / in
> this incarnation, is a product of karma
> accrued and shed over multiple instances of
> existence. Hence, what you are now is
> precisely what you _deserve_ to be. All
> persons may have been created equal some
> untold incarnations ago and before they had
> any opportunity to accrete karma.
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 2:04
> PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sarbajit,
>
>
>
> If I understand the shape of the globe
> correctly, you are waking up pretty soon,
> and I would like to pick up the
> conversation about caste, if you don’t
> mind.
>
>
>
> I believe the proposition in the subject
> line. Given the many ways that
> proposition can be understood as plainly
> false, I feel that my belief in it must be
> defended.
>
>
>
> In what sense equal? Not in genes. Not
> in uterine environment. . Not in early
> nutrition and cognitive stimulation. Not
> in social capitol. Not in financial
> capitol. Not in access to health care.
> Not in exposure to future parasites. Not
> in almost anything that I can think of.
> So, why is the aphorism not just nonsense.
>
>
>
> I find, that if I examine my thinking in
> this matter, a very primitive metaphysics
> about the moment of an individual’s
> creation. What follows is flagrantly
> silly, but here it is. On my account, at
> the moment of birth a soul is taken out of
> storage and assigned to a body. By
> “person” in the aphorism, I mean the
> combination of a particular soul with the
> particular body. These assignments are at
> random. So, for good or ill, no soul
> deserves the body it gets. I cannot
> claim credit for my genes, my good uterine
> environment, my social capitol, my
> financial capitol, my bad hip, the draft
> deferment it provided, my getting a phd at
> absolute peak of demand for phd’s, my good
> education, even my FRIAM membership. They
> are all consequences of that initial,
> random assignment. Now YOU may credit me
> in some ways, because knowing that all
> these advantages have been assigned to me
> may make me useful or pleasing (or the
> opposite) in many ways, and that may bring
> me the advantages of your association.
> But è I ç do not èdeserveç those advantages.
>
>
>
> This odd metaphysics leads me to enormous
> gratitude for the life I have been allowed
> to live and great sympathy for rigorous
> taxation of the advantaged, so that so
> much a soul’s future is not determined by
> that moment of assignment.
>
>
>
> I have no idea what happens to this
> primitive metaphysics if I try to
> integrate it with my monism. The
> religious scholars among you might
> recognize as some backass weird perversion
> of Calvinism.
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
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