[FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Fri Aug 27 19:12:16 EDT 2021
And as one of Frank's readers, I highly recommend it if you have any
nostalgia at all, or curiosity about what made Frank Frank!
I doubt it will motivate ME to write my own as Nick encourages, though I
suppose I could just collate my FriAM reminiscences and that alone would
probably qualify...
The first chapter, I suppose would be "canned ham and a cowbell"?
> A link to the photo is in a separate email. I wouldn't mind going
> back. I wouldn't care about not having published more papers.
>
> Say, this is a good moment to pitch my memoir about my childhood in
> New Mexico.
>
> amazon.com/author/frankwimberly <http://amazon.com/author/frankwimberly>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 3:54 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> OOOOPS! No photo!
>
>
>
> Thanks for your observations. Let’s say everybody like you were
> sent back to that boxcar. There would be a revolution, right?
> Blood in the streets.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2021 3:56 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"
>
>
>
> A photo of me, my oldest cousin, and my grandfather taken at that
> time (WW2). That's a railroad boxcar used as a temporary
> residence for transient railroad workers.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 1:45 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com
> <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> During WW2, while my father was serving in the Pacific, my
> mother and I lived with her parents in a little village in the
> mountains of rural New Mexico. We lived in a two bedroom
> house with running water but no bathroom. Heat was provided
> by a wood burning stove that was used for cooking as well.
> There was a battery powered console radio. I was between 4
> months and 30 months old. I was bathed in a galvanized
> washtub and I remember that. We had no shortage of food nor
> clothing. My grandfather worked for the Santa Fe Railroad as
> a section foreman and had a secure salary. I remember being
> happy but, for the most part, I was oblivious. A kid that age
> isn't happy if the adults, particularly his mother, aren't
> happy. After my mother and I moved away from there after the
> War we visited often until I was five. I remember my
> grandparents enjoying life for the most part.
>
>
>
> To live like that today would require me to give up almost
> everything I have. But I feel nostalgic for that time and
> fond of those memories.
>
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 1:23 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> So, of the privileges you enjoy and list, how many would
> have to go away before you life would be no longer “decent”?
>
>
>
> To be honest, Idon’t know what I am fishing for here, but
> for some reason the answer to that question seems
> important to me. I guess, I am thinking that the notion of
> a decent life, like that of a essential worker, hides some
> caste implications within it. That some of us are of a
> nature that they SHOULD be satisfied with less than would
> satisfy me.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Pieter
> Steenekamp
> *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2021 3:06 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
> Thanks for asking how I would characterize the life I'm
> leading. My life is just great, I'm satisfied with my
> life. My need for food, safety, love and self-esteem are
> to a large degree met. Actually, I would rate myself on
> the self-actualization level on Moslow's hierarchy.
>
> It's not about me, there are many people in South Africa
> who's basic physiological needs like food and safety are
> not met.
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 20:28, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Pieter,
>
>
>
> If, in your ideal world, their lives are “decent, ”
> how would you characterize the life that you are
> leading. The way you talk sounds a bit like the way
> we talk about “essential” workers here.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of
> *Pieter Steenekamp
> *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2021 1:49 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
> Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"
>
>
>
> Dave wrote /Why this obsession with "equality?"/
>
>
>
> I totally agree. But in South Africa we have a large
> portion of the population that do not have food on the
> table every day and I simply don't think it's right.
>
> So, my view is that instead of obsessing with
> "equality", we should obsess that those on the bottom
> of the economic ladder should at least have decent lives.
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 19:11, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> I think of mathematical abstractions as aspirations.
>
>
>
> Thanks for meeting me on my own ground, here. You
> will recall that my original project was to try
> and discover what the metaphysical foundations
> might be for my strong negative response to the
> idea that castes are tolerable. What MUST I
> assume in order to think as I do. I have for
> many years suspected that the fundamental
> difference between comfortable BHL’s like me and
> comfortable conservatives is that we liberals see
> our comfort as arising from good luck, and they
> see their comfort as arising from their merit.
> Now, all metaphysics is non-sense, except insofar
> as it explains and encourages an approach to other
> people that is … um …. Good. I think than mine
> encourages me to approach people less wealthy than
> I, not as people deserving of their fate but as
> people who have, in some sense, made me a gift.
> Thus if there is kharma, it should be that the
> fortunate “should” pay for the correction of any
> absence of randomness that intergenerational
> transfers might inflict on the children of the
> poor.
>
>
>
> I lay this out in this naïve way because I thought
> it might provoke a strong (and perhaps equally
> naïve) reaction from Sarbajit which would make it
> immediately clear what different places we are
> coming from. Sarbajit may not answer, in which
> case I am left having revealed my naivete
> metaphysics to you bozos with all the consequences
> that must follow.
>
>
>
> Now remember, nobody ever claimed that all
> [persons] are created equal. I think that we all
> will agree that all persons are created equal [
> in] and that they are endowed … with certain
> unalienable rights …” “– i.e., they should be
> equal before the law. Our differences lie between
> these two poles. I take the “and” seriously, and
> think that, above and beyond the legal rights
> implied by the “endowment” conveyed by the second
> clause, they have an obligation of humbleness and
> gratitude to all those what have their good
> fortune possible, and that, at the very minimum
> that obligation should be expressed in an overtly
> redistributive tax policy.
>
>
>
> But even if you don’t accept the further
> implications of severing the two clauses in the
> way that I do, the notion of equality before the
> law demands much more of the rich than they
> currently pay. For instance, when J. P. Morgan IX
> runs over the faithful k-9 companion of the
> homeless Max Morgan and Max decides to sue, J.P.
> can pay the requested amount, including Max’s
> court costs and be done with it. If he decides to
> contest, then both parties should pay into the
> court costs in proportion to their wealth and the
> lawyers should be assigned at random.
>
>
>
> To the extent that the list is laced with
> libertarians, I don’t expect much sympathy from
> the list for any of this. If one thing unites
> libertarians, I would wager, it is the idea that
> people get what they deserve, or at least, that
> they have the right to hang on to whatever they get.
>
>
>
> So, Dave: What is your naïve metaphysics?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of
> *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2021 11:17 AM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created
> equal"
>
>
>
> OK, curmudgeon and misanthrope that I am, I still
> must ask:
>
>
>
> Why this obsession with "equality?"
>
>
>
> Outside of the abstraction of math, no one thing
> is equal, in any sense, to another, let alone all
> members of a set of things being equal to each other.
>
>
>
> Narrowing our attention to human beings. it has
> already been noted that the dimensions of
> potential inequality are myriad. It would be
> impossible to "equalize" all dimensions
> simultaneously, so pick one, income for example,
> and equalize on that dimension.
>
>
>
> To what end? What outcome would you expect to see?
> Why would it not be the case that every possible
> outcome would result in persistent "inequalities"
> because all the other dimensions of difference
> would swamp your 'independent variable' of income?
>
>
>
> No two human beings are created equal, let alone
> all "men." (sic) But the unfounded conviction that
> this must be 'true' demands the invention of myth
> to explain why it is not. And those myths are, in
> my opinion, harmful and divisive.
>
>
>
> I agree with Pieter (and probably everyone else on
> this list) that the current state of income
> inequality is evil and untenable. But, I would
> disagree with any means of rectifying the
> situation that is grounded in any kind of myth of
> individual human "equality."
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, at 1:34 AM, Pieter
> Steenekamp wrote:
>
> If you just look at the world then "all
> [persons] are created equal" is just nonsense.
> What I like to focus on is what can we as a
> society do, and what can I personally do to
> move towards making all more equal? It's
> obviously not practical to expect heaven on
> earth, but IMO the current state of inequality
> is just not acceptable, but that's no reason
> to do nothing. For now I just address the
> first one, what can we as a society do?
>
>
>
> The current state of politics is to a
> large extent driven by ideology and I would
> like to see a movement towards a more
> practical, and humble approach. Like an
> approach based on the philosophy behind the
> 2019 economic Nobel prize winners Banerjee,
> Duflo and Kremer. Their approach to reduce
> global poverty is experiment-based, taken from
> science.
>
>
>
> I quote from
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2019/10/14/nobel-prize-in-economics-won-by-trio-tackling-global-poverty/
> <https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2019/10/14/nobel-prize-in-economics-won-by-trio-tackling-global-poverty/>
> :
>
> "Their work, which tackles one of humanities
> most pressing issues, is based on the idea
> that to battle poverty, the issues should be
> broken down into smaller pieces and studied
> via small field experiments to answer precise
> questions within the communities who are most
> affected."
>
>
>
> Another quote:
>
> "Poor people are supposed to be either
> completely desperate or lazy or
> entrepreneurial but people don’t – we don’t
> try to … understand the deep root and
> interconnected root of poverty." - Esther Duflo
>
>
>
> I don't mind if anybody wants to understand
> the deep root and interconnected root of
> poverty, it's just that I personally, like
> Esther Duflo, like to focus on what to do
> about it.
>
>
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 05:07,
> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> This is, of course, exactly the opposite
> of my creation myth in which the slate is
> wiped clean after every generation. But
> it would explain a belief system in which
> well-being was the deserved reward of
> having lived well in a previous life.
>
>
>
> While I am here, please let me point out
> that “equal in law” seems a rather
> constrained understanding “born equal”,
> given especially that the passage goes on
> to add equality in law (well rights,
> actually) as an additional endowment.
>
>
>
> “… and they are endowed by their Creator
> by certain rights, including life,
> liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
>
>
>
> Where is John Dobson when we need him.
> Could somebody please forward this note to
> him. I don’t have his email address here
> with me.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Nick
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On
> Behalf Of *Prof David West
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:17 PM
>
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are
> created equal"
>
>
>
> Purely from my academic understanding of
> the subject; the Nick that is, at this
> moment / in this incarnation, is a product
> of karma accrued and shed over multiple
> instances of existence. Hence, what you
> are now is precisely what you _deserve_ to
> be. All persons may have been created
> equal some untold incarnations ago and
> before they had any opportunity to accrete
> karma.
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 2:04
> PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sarbajit,
>
>
>
> If I understand the shape of the globe
> correctly, you are waking up pretty
> soon, and I would like to pick up the
> conversation about caste, if you don’t
> mind.
>
>
>
> I believe the proposition in the
> subject line. Given the many ways
> that proposition can be understood as
> plainly false, I feel that my belief
> in it must be defended.
>
>
>
> In what sense equal? Not in genes.
> Not in uterine environment. . Not in
> early nutrition and cognitive
> stimulation. Not in social capitol.
> Not in financial capitol. Not in
> access to health care. Not in
> exposure to future parasites. Not in
> almost anything that I can think of.
> So, why is the aphorism not just nonsense.
>
>
>
> I find, that if I examine my thinking
> in this matter, a very primitive
> metaphysics about the moment of an
> individual’s creation. What follows
> is flagrantly silly, but here it is.
> On my account, at the moment of birth
> a soul is taken out of storage and
> assigned to a body. By “person” in
> the aphorism, I mean the combination
> of a particular soul with the
> particular body. These assignments
> are at random. So, for good or ill,
> no soul deserves the body it gets. I
> cannot claim credit for my genes, my
> good uterine environment, my social
> capitol, my financial capitol, my bad
> hip, the draft deferment it provided,
> my getting a phd at absolute peak of
> demand for phd’s, my good education,
> even my FRIAM membership. They are
> all consequences of that initial,
> random assignment. Now YOU may
> credit me in some ways, because
> knowing that all these advantages have
> been assigned to me may make me useful
> or pleasing (or the opposite) in many
> ways, and that may bring me the
> advantages of your association. But è
> I ç do not èdeserveç those advantages.
>
>
>
> This odd metaphysics leads me to
> enormous gratitude for the life I have
> been allowed to live and great
> sympathy for rigorous taxation of the
> advantaged, so that so much a soul’s
> future is not determined by that
> moment of assignment.
>
>
>
> I have no idea what happens to this
> primitive metaphysics if I try to
> integrate it with my monism. The
> religious scholars among you might
> recognize as some backass weird
> perversion of Calvinism.
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
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