[FRIAM] Eternal questions

Sun Aug 29 14:20:36 EDT 2021

Nick,

Thesis, antithesis, synthesis.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021, 10:58 AM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I know.  If we agreed without realizing it think of the time and work
> we've spent.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Aug 29, 2021, 10:11 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Frenemy,
>>
>>
>>
>> What I HOPE I said is that you have no special means of access, no
>> infallible aprehension of your own states.  I hope I did not say that you
>> have no information that I do not have, because that would be absurd.
>> Every point of view gives access to different sources of [fallible]
>> information.
>>
>>
>>
>> Geez!  I would hate to think that we AGREED after all these years.
>>
>>
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 29, 2021 11:04 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick,
>>
>>
>>
>> I can't find the message to which this is an appropriate reply.  Did you
>> know once say to me that I have no private inner life or not?  Maybe I have
>> a false memory.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 12:22 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ach!  My point was I don't think you need organisms, or minds, or any of
>> the "hard" stuff, to run into the logical problems entailed in moving
>> between levels of organization.  Perhaps I am just too old, too slow,  too
>> HOT, too uninformed, to be in this argument, right now. Or ever?    Not
>> without some help in language mediation, anyway, from some of my trusties,
>> who are absent from the conversation.   So, I bow out.   But I love you all.
>>
>> N
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 2:08 PM
>> To: friam at redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions
>>
>> Choosing a particular emotion misses the point, confuses the noise for
>> the signal. The polyphenism, alone, demonstrates that starting with a
>> particular emotion and working inversely from that phenotype to the
>> generators is guaranteed to be a difficult problem ... you're guaranteeing
>> that we stay stuck in this argument forever.
>>
>> Instead, work on the forward map from generator to phenomenon. The
>> article Roger posted goes a long way to helping us understand how to get
>> from molecules (or tissue, at least) to either glucose regulation or
>> storage/retrieval. And we're not talking about billiard balls. We're
>> talking about ion channels, neuron firing, collections of neurons firing,
>> anatomical tissue and patterns of firing correlated with such tissue, and
>> finally spectral analyses of such firing patterns. That carries us along a
>> forward map from molecules to consciousness (or, at least, perception).
>>
>> And I don't think we're going to get to EricS' question without that
>> compositional stack, because we're going to have to talk about which parts
>> are Markovian and which parts are not (or are high-order Markovian).
>>
>> On 8/26/21 9:34 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>> > I guess I think in levels of organization, and my rants are always of
>> > the form, Grant Each Level Its Due and Do Not Confuse Them.  So you can
>> discuss the amygdala all you want, but you still have not described, or
>> identified, fear.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > So, you ask, how would a person of my persuasion go about explaining
>> > the relation between the molecules in my skin  and the excitation of
>> those elections that produce on my screen, what I am writing.  Never mind
>> the socalled hard problem (the problem of the soul). Let’s figure out a way
>> to talk about that.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Or for that matter, let’s make it even simpler:  Let’s talk about the
>> > relation between the molecules of a cue  ball that result in the motion
>> of the eightball into a pocket and the loss of the game.   Let’s even do
>> some spherical cowing here and assume that one, and only one molecule of
>> the cue ball touches one and only one molecule of the eightball.  Is this a
>> good model?   Have I understood the question right?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I don’t think Nick should say “I am my fear.”  I think he should say
>> > “I am the sum total of all the things that I do and that fear is one of
>> the things I do”.   Or, perhaps, to put it in terms of experience-monism,
>> “I am all that I experience and when I experience my flight behavior in
>> relation to my experience of my circumstances I experience my fear.”
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have to get back to that message from EricS that I bungled my
>> response to.
>>
>> --
>> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>>
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>
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