[FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

Sat Jan 9 15:34:09 EST 2021

Cody, 

You know, that’s a really good point.  Hadn’t thought of it. 

N

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of cody dooderson
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 3:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

It is ironic that the crowds carried so many American flags. Maybe that's why the police didn't take them more seriously. It seems like the American flag is used as camouflage for the trojan horse carrying it. I wonder how many windows were broken by American flags, and police officers were assaulted with 'blue lives matter' flags. 

Cody Smith

On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 1:20 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

I have no problem with the capitol security using deadly force in this kind of situation.   

As far as I'm concerned they could have sent in Apache helicopters to deal with the Malheur situation and made an object lesson of them. 

Get that point across.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 12:02 PM
To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

On 1/8/21 2:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Why did yahoos so easily penetrate the capitol security?   Either the police were incompetent, mis-deployed, or they let this happen.  

and, and, and...  all three.

Incompetent:  I sense that Capitol Police are not experienced/practiced in dealing with aggressive groups...  maybe a few aggressive individuals, but not a mob.   The police beating down BLM protestors ARE experienced (likely to a fault).  Capitol Police were not "competent" in riot control, not really that surprising.

Mis-deployed: I sense that few expected Trump to offer (direct them ) to march his rally crowd down to the Capitol, and even then, they didn't expect the crowds to become a mob.   Hindsight makes it seem absurd they couldn't expect that, but they seem not to have?   DC Mayor who may have anticipated some of this does not have jurisdiction on Capitol grounds, she probably didn't *need* National Guard to stop the nonsense that might have spilled over.  I'm not sure who the cops were in the various BLM protest beat-downs in DC but I think they were significantly not the rank and file who are normally monitoring the metal detectors in the lobby of the Capitol entrance.

Complicit:  Clearly a *few* Capitol Police were taking selfies and encouraging the *crowd*, but I think not the *mob* that grew out of it. If any of the Capitol Police had been exquisitely aligned with the mob spirit, I think they might have lead the charge, maybe shot a few fellow officers or some Congressional staff/members themselves.  I do wish there would be a public hearing with *every* officer required to account the events from their point of view of what happened.  Or more to the point, *private* interviews recorded and made public after all were gathered and vetted (so that they could not build their narratives together).    I'm not sure there were more than a few bad apples and then merely bruised or sour apples on the force, but it is a microcosm of the larger socio-spiritual rot I think that pervades our culture.  It doesn't smell like an "inside job".

On the topic of complicity/culpability:  I think *every* identifiable person on Capitol Grounds that day should be charged with the highest crime that fits their behaviour/circumstance and the same kind of private interviews/statements taken and released to the public.   If one of my neighbors or co-workers was involved, I want to know it, and I want to know what they *thought* (or claim) they were doing there.   I am a naturally forgiving and generous person, but I'd like my neighbors to have to be accountable to *me* (and their other
neighbors/friends/family/colleagues) in the sense of transparency. Mr.  Viking Buffalo Coyote - hat clearly has a niche/bubble he lives in where that persona is allowed/encouraged/celebrated, but I'll bet there were more than a few who will be quite chagrined when they realize what they participated in and (maybe) how they were complicit and therefore culpable.  I also wonder if there were *any* innocent bystanders? Surely there were on-protestor citizens attending the hearings?  They were open, right?

Meanwhile, I"m glad to see Donald besmirch his already tattered image some more, along with that of his (now backpedaling) sycophants.  It feels as if he just shat himself (some more) on the way out the door...
  it will take some time to clean up the nest, but it takes *some* of the shine off of his martyrdom doesn't it?

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of ? glen
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:34 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism
>
> Your exuberant confidence always catches me off guard. I mean, I largely agree with you. But, as usual, my confidence in my own opinion is vanishingly small compared to yours. Anyway, here are some articles that help me doubt my opinion:
>
> https://www.propublica.org/article/capitol-rioters-planned-for-weeks-i
> n-plain-sight-the-police-werent-ready#1040996
>
> https://www.opb.org/article/2021/01/06/washington-2021-legislative-ses
> sion/
>
> https://pugetsoundanarchists.org/evergreen-state-patriots-new-graphics
> -and-details/
>
> https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thefreethinker/2021/01/christian-who-bre
> ached-capitol-says-rioters-did-what-they-had-to-do/
>
> To boot, your confidence in your opinion that the risk was/is low may be more evidence of below, despite your disagreement re Trump:
>
> https://undark.org/2021/01/07/science-trump-grip-white-male-effect/
>
> I think we should be conservative and assume the risk is very high, even if I think it's actually low. Dave may be right that these are mostly yahoos. But practice makes perfect. Treat this like an exercise for the future when it may not be yahoos.
>
>
> On January 7, 2021 8:07:16 PM PST, Eric Charles <eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com <mailto:eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com> > wrote:
>> (My take, copy-paste from other social media, a around 10 pm 
>> yesterday)
>>
>> Someone posted something asking for positive thoughts and things we 
>> are hopeful for (to contrast the news cycle), but honestly:
>> All considered, so far I'm hopeful for exactly the things others find 
>> heavy. There were a few thousand peaceful protestors in DC and at the 
>> absolute most a few hundred who wanted to cause trouble. And it looks 
>> like it's done. Honestly, that's WAY less violence than I was worried 
>> about, and it looks like it's petered out already. I get that the 
>> symbolism of it happening at the Capitol is particularly disturbing, 
>> but it's not an honest threat of a coup, it's not an uprising, and 
>> I'm less worried about those things now than I was before.
>> I seriously thought there would be incidents like this an 20-30 
>> locations, that many of the protestors would be armed and intent on 
>> firing, that they would be prepared to lay siege to buildings, etc. I 
>> think the delayed declaration of the winner took much of the wind out 
>> of both sides.
>> For those watching from abroad, this is NOT in any way a serious coup 
>> attempt. If you are watching news spinning it that way... well.. it 
>> just wasn't. I am already seeing the news cycle rewriting it to be 
>> more than it was. Even with a person shot and several arrests, in a 
>> country of
>> 330,000,000 people, at most a few hundred hoodlums acting like idiots 
>> is not a coup. Those individuals could potentially be charged with 
>> some pretty serious crimes, but they were not in any way an organized 
>> group trying to incite insurrection, and it now seems clear that no 
>> bigger group with that goal is arising anytime soon. They had no 
>> military backing, no internal structure, no actual agenda. They had nothing.
>>
>> There wasn't even enough resolve to stay in the DC streets past the 6 
>> pm curfew. There isn't a fraction of the resolve shown by the BLM 
>> protestors, Occupy Wallstreet, or even the Bundy's in that Wildlife 
>> Refuge stand off.
>> They are angry, they are willing to break things, but have no agenda 
>> and no resolve.
>>
>> Had the Capitol had a few score more police officers (which they 
>> obviously should have), it sure seems like this would have been 
>> nothing.
>>
> --
> glen ⛧
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn 
> GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>  un/subscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn 
> GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>  un/subscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>  un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> 
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> 
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20210109/39310b4c/attachment.html>