[FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation

Sun Nov 28 22:44:48 EST 2021

Interesting.  The delay business always confounds me.  In an old fashioned thermostat, the tightening of the coil causes the mercury vial to unbalance which causes the mercury to move down the vial which causes the circuit to open which causes the furnace to start.  Some of the events are simultaneous, some involve a few hundredths of a second delay;  on that ground are some causes, in your world, and some not?

Perhaps a better example is the steam governor.  The increase of the steam pressure causes the increased rotation of the governor causes the balls to rise causes the steam value to clauses… etc.  These elements are linked together by steel rods.  In what sense are they not occurring simultaneously, or do the bearings have to be loose in order for this sequence to be called causal, rather than constitutional (constituative?)  I guess I am worry about situations like the ball sorting toy in which the small yellow balls fall to the bottom of the toy because they are small, and not because they are yellow.  There clearly there is NO delay, so we wont say “because the small balls fell to the bottom the yellow balls fell to the bottom.  Ach.  How would you talk about a situation like this in CMU speak.   If there is no delay, how do you describe the relation?

And yes, we are just talking about language here. 

N

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 8:58 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation

An element of a (very short) cycle.  Note that there has to be a delay.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:44 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Frank, 

In your lingo, what is an effect called that feeds back on its cause?

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 7:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation

Yes, for example.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 6:06 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

I guess you mean A(t=0)->B(t=1), B(t=1)->A(t=2), not B(t=1)->A(t=0)

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:46 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation

I did a number of experiments in the use of causal learning methods to infer genetic regulatory networks using actual and simulated data.  Those networks have loops of a variety of lengths.  References available upon request.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 4:41 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

I just don't see how that is a "loop" except that repeated application of such a matrix could lead to oscillation.    It sounded like somehow causality was violated and not just obscured.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of ? glen
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:38 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation

Right, high dimension. More important than the matrix being large is that it has non-zero cross terms.

On November 28, 2021 8:42:37 AM PST, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:
>The operators are large (in the sense of a matrix) whether or not they are intended to be?
>
>> On Nov 28, 2021, at 6:20 AM, ⛧ glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> > wrote:
>> 
>> Any of the evolutionary operators across scales, from energy exchange at the finest to ecosystem reengineering at the coarsest.
>> 
>>> On November 27, 2021 7:33:15 AM PST, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:
>>> I’ve heard these words from you Glen, but I have no idea what these loops are or what you might be talking about.
>>> 
-- 
glen ⛧

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