[FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Tue Apr 12 22:22:21 EDT 2022

On 4/12/22 5:53 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I am not saying such a system would not need to be predatory or parasitic, just that it can be arranged to preserve the contents of a library.

And I can't help knee-jerking that when a cell attempts to live forever 
(and/or replicate itself perfectly) that it becomes a tumour in the 
organ(ism) that gave rise to it, and even metastasizes, spreading it's 
hubris to other organs/systems.

Somehow, I think the inter-planetary post-human singularians are more 
like metastatic cells than "the future of humanity".   Maybe that is NOT 
a dead-end, but my mortality-chauvanistic "self" rebels.   Maybe if I 
live long enough I'll come around... or maybe there will be a CAS 
mediated edit to fix that pessimism in me.

>> On Apr 12, 2022, at 4:29 PM, glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dude. Every time I think we could stop, you say something I object to. >8^D You're doing it on purpose. I'm sure of it ... like pulling the wings off flies and cackling like a madman.
>>
>> No, the maintenance protocol must be *part of* the meat-like intelligence. That's why I mention things like suicide or starving yourself because your wife stops feeding you. To me, a forever-autopoietic system seems like a perpetual motion machine ... there's something being taken for granted by the conception ... some unlimited free energy or somesuch.
>>
>>> On 4/12/22 16:16, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> That meat-like intelligence could live forever with the right maintenance protocol.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2022 4:11 PM
>>> To: friam at redfish.com
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics
>>> Ha! 8^D
>>> But neither the ANN clone, nor the *stereotyped* heuristics generated by an autonomous car capture the high-dimensional opportunity I believe meat organisms experience. Yes, the subsequent evolution of the ANNs and the stereotyped out-group are more concrete than most synthetic minds. But my claim, were I to actually hold it and try to state it more clearly, is that meat, living in meat space, is more open than those 2 examples. It's the openness that provides the meat with the opportunity. The ANNs and autonomous car are more fixed, more closed.
>>> However, I do believe machine intelligence *will* reach meat intelligence. But it'll have to look a lot more like meat intelligence to do so. It's already looking a lot more like meat intelligence than it was even 10 years ago. And if we stay at this supralinear rate (or higher), it'll happen sooner than I, this meat bag, thinks.
>>>> On 4/12/22 15:58, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>> Now it is entirely possible to take a massive pre-trained neural net like GPT3 and run it in two places at once or have different instances use a baseline and take divergent paths from different training.
>>>> None of that is possible for humans, at least yet.    Some autonomous cars even know enough to be afraid of the police!  (Regarding concreteness.)  https://electrek.co/2022/04/10/gm-cruise-autonomous-taxi-pulled-over-by-police-in-san-francisco-without-humans-bolts-off-u-cruise-responds/
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2022 3:47 PM
>>>> To: friam at redfish.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics
>>>>
>>>> Exactly. Both of these (low turnover wisdom propagation & "flat" infoscape) fail in my conception because they lack the concrete (definit) particulars. Even if we have one 400 year old vampire telling funny stories to a 30 year vampire about a now-exploded vampire from 700 years ago, the sheer *number* of anecdotes required to capture a 400 year lifespan *forces* some abstraction ... some leaving out of important detail.
>>>>
>>>> And even if the concrete details of why, say, Galileo was such an OCD journaling nerd can be found in biographies or whatnot, actually reading and learning about all the persnickety nonsense that was *crucial* to the arrival at, emergence of, any given inflection point, ... even if that concrete detail is logged/documented out there somewhere, nobody can learn it all. Each learner is forced to take an abstracted slice through it.
>>>>
>>>> What the commitment to meat space interactions is, is a way to ensure that the concreteness remains ... at least within *some* small "open ball", you're getting a high-dimensional opportunity. I think of it in terms of the space vs time tradeoff and (yes, broken record) the parallelism theorem. Sure, a sequential system can simulate a parallel one perfectly, but only if you give it the time to do so ... and the amount of time it takes to do it is related to the amount of space the parallel system uses. Another way to think of it is the project management triangle: cheap, fast, or good. But those are low-dimensional. The space being balanced by organisms in the world is high-dimensional.
>>>>
>>>> On 4/12/22 14:19, Steve Smith wrote:
>>>>> Generations past (and under-mobile near-subsistence cultures today) have more intergenerational households and neighborhoods providing the heterarchical/holarchical connection/communication you suggest.   Or so my "just so" story relates.
>>>>>
>>>>> The expansive breadth offered by global (near-instantaneous, global) communication/publication/relationship connections possibly makes up for that in the large, a major refactoring of problems and solutions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally suffer from the lack of cross-cultural, cross-class experience of frequenting a neighborhood "watering hole" (pub/tavern/saloon) in the way Glen seems to enjoy (cultivate). My oldest regular drinking-philosophy buddy would be over 110 today (he died over 20 years ago from alcohol-related illness) and until about 5 years ago I had a small cohort of 30ish imbibing interlocutors.  I blame COVID, but the reasons are probably larger and more nefarious.
>>>>
>> -- 
>> Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙
>>
>>
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