[FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

[Steve Smith]

Glen-

I think you are (accidentally?) winning me over to the 
post/trans-humanist fetish.   Just your talk of "play" and realizing how 
much I *already* play with automatons in the form of (see driving 
anecdotes) other drivers and roadway systems and (smart or dumb) 
traffic-lights, etc and bureaucracies.   I admit to always being taken 
in by (modern) science fiction stories with robot/android - human 
relationships... playing what might amount to a continuous, infinite 
game of Turing Test with them.   The same kind of "play" I currently 
engage in with dogs, cats, horses, watercourses, etc.   As a good 
animist, I can't see how I could reject the opportunity to "Play" with 
machine intelligences!

When I get a full-body prosthetic to make up for my slowly failing 
organic musculo-skeletal system, I will probably find great enjoyment in 
"playing" with it the way I currently "play" with my bicycle and other 
vehicles, testing (softly these days) their performance envelope and 
response modes.

Jump cut to Ridley in her  Space-Mining-Waldo-Exoskeleton  with or 
without an Alien opponent.

On 4/13/22 9:36 AM, glen wrote:
> But we don't "create the neural structure over and over", at least we 
> don't create the *same* neural structure over and over. One way in 
> which big-data-trained self-attending ANN structures now mimic meat 
> intelligence is in that very intense training period. Development 
> (from zygote to (dysfunctional) adult) is the training. Adulting is 
> the testing/execution. But these transformer based mechanisms don't 
> seem, in my ignorance, to be as flexible as those grown in meat. Do we 
> have self-attending machines that can change what parts of self 
> they're attending? Change from soft to hard? Allow for self-attending 
> the part that's self-attending (and up and around in a loopy way)? To 
> what extent can we make them modal, swapping from learning mode to 
> perform mode? As SteveS points out, can machine intelligence "play" or 
> "practice" in the sense normal animals like us do? Are our modes even 
> modes? Or is all performance a type of play? To what extent can we 
> make them "social", collecting/integrating multiple transformer-based 
> ANNs so as to form a materially open problem solving collective?
>
> Anyway, it seems to me the neural structure is *not* an encoding of a 
> means to do things. It's a *complement* to the state(s) of the world 
> in which the neural structure grew. Co-evolutionary processes seem 
> different from encoding. Adversaries don't encode models of their 
> opponents so much as they mold their selves to smear into, fit with, 
> innervate, anastomose [⛧], their adversaries. This is what makes 2 
> party games similar to team games and distinguishes "play" (infinite 
> or meta-games) from "gaming" (finite, or well-bounded payoff games).
>
> Again, I'm not suggesting machine intelligence can't do any of this; 
> or even that they aren't doing it to some small extent now. I'm only 
> suggesting they'll have to do *more* of it in order to be as capable 
> as meat intelligence.
>
> [⛧] I like "anastomotic" for adversarial systems as opposed to 
> "innervated" for co-evolution because anastomotic tissue seems (to me) 
> to result from a kind of high pressure, biomechanical stress. Perhaps 
> an analogy of soft martial arts styles to innervate and hard styles to 
> anastomose?
>
> On 4/12/22 20:43, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Today, humans go to some length to record history, to preserve 
>> companies and their assets.  But for some reason preserving the means 
>> to do things -- the essence of a mind -- this has this different 
>> status.  Why not seek to inherit minds too?  Sure, I can see the same 
>> knowledge base can be represented in different ways.   But, studying 
>> those neural representations could also be informative.   What if 
>> neural structures have similar topological properties given some 
>> curriculum?  What a waste to create that neural structure over and 
>> over..
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2022 7:22 PM
>> To: friam at redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive 
>> heuristics
>>
>>
>> On 4/12/22 5:53 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> I am not saying such a system would not need to be predatory or 
>>> parasitic, just that it can be arranged to preserve the contents of 
>>> a library.
>>
>> And I can't help knee-jerking that when a cell attempts to live 
>> forever (and/or replicate itself perfectly) that it becomes a tumour 
>> in the
>> organ(ism) that gave rise to it, and even metastasizes, spreading 
>> it's hubris to other organs/systems.
>>
>> Somehow, I think the inter-planetary post-human singularians are more 
>> like metastatic cells than "the future of humanity". Maybe that is 
>> NOT a dead-end, but my mortality-chauvanistic "self" rebels.   Maybe 
>> if I live long enough I'll come around... or maybe there will be a 
>> CAS mediated edit to fix that pessimism in me.
>>
>>
>>>> On Apr 12, 2022, at 4:29 PM, glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dude. Every time I think we could stop, you say something I object 
>>>> to. >8^D You're doing it on purpose. I'm sure of it ... like 
>>>> pulling the wings off flies and cackling like a madman.
>>>>
>>>> No, the maintenance protocol must be *part of* the meat-like 
>>>> intelligence. That's why I mention things like suicide or starving 
>>>> yourself because your wife stops feeding you. To me, a 
>>>> forever-autopoietic system seems like a perpetual motion machine 
>>>> ... there's something being taken for granted by the conception ... 
>>>> some unlimited free energy or somesuch.
>>>>
>
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