[FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy

Tue Feb 8 13:14:08 EST 2022

The diameter of the pipe is fine.  However, a micro expander/turbine needs
to be invented.

On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 11:07 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:

> Could this idea work all the way out to the consumer?   Get a
> pump/generator delivered by the storage company and hook it up to obsoleted
> gas service?
>
> I’m not actually sure I could get 400-amp service to power an electric car
> and electric water heaters, heat pump, and computer equipment.   Also, in
> fire-prone areas, delivery of electricity via air would be safer.  In my
> county it is possible to get batteries paid from PG&E if one has had
> multiple outages for fire safety.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Michael Orshan
> *Sent:* Monday, February 7, 2022 7:51 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our
> Democracy
>
>
>
> Renewable has three issues right now and generation is not one of them,
> yet most people focus on generation.  The issues are intermittency,
> transmission lines and financing new assets.  We are forcing the retirement
> of revenue producing assets they have been paid for.  By storing air in
> pipelines until needed we are solving intermittency.  By generating closer
> where the energy is used we are greatly reducing the need for
> transmission.  By reusing the infrastructure we are saving a paid for
> asset.  Yes the conversion efficiency is low, but who cares.  The storage
> is incredibly huge.  Inertia energy itself pays for itself 50x this way and
> its instant.  Look up Long Duration Energy Systems.  This is the scramble
> that is going on right now.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 6:46 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> The conversion losses seem like a big issue?
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Michael Orshan
> *Sent:* Monday, February 7, 2022 5:42 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our
> Democracy
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> That is a famous prototype.  Recently Hydrostor made headlines building
> new CAES plants.  The main issue is the need of a salt cavern.  The amount
> of possible sites is very small.  The caverns are used to mine salts for
> bleaches/chemicals or to store natural gas.  This tech is $111/kwh.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 6:14 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> For comparison
>
>
>
>
> https://schaperintl.com/is-the-juice-worth-the-squeeze-compressed-air-energy-storage-for-grid-scale-power/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Michael Orshan
> *Sent:* Monday, February 7, 2022 3:42 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our
> Democracy
>
>
>
> Hi Frank:
>
>
>
> We need any, but hopefully renewable energy, to generate power for the
> compressors.  This also creates heat which we can recycle for more
> electricity or use for industrial purposes.  Our efficiency isn't high, but
> once we are in the pipelines we have a huge battery.  60 miles, 36 inch
> diameter can hold 240MWh.  We can be instant inertia energy or generate.
> Our storage costs are about $50/kwh.  Batteries are $400/kwh for example.
> Also, we can store compressed air for months upon months.  Also, if we can
> build the renewables close enough to the plant we can go DC/DC which is a
> 25% energy savings not having to convert to AC.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 11:05 AM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> How do you compress the air?  Any method I can think of uses energy.  From
> what source?
>
>
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 7, 2022, 10:57 AM Michael Orshan <morshan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi.  I'm a reader more than a contributor, but the Hydrogen discussion is
> close to my day to day.
>
>
>
> Many of us in renewables think Hydrogen might mostly be kick the can as
> Steve mentioned.  It is something that might be economically feasible in
> the 2030s and so the length of time oil companies sell oil increases.
> Having said that, there are a number of very pricey Hydrogen projects
> getting funded.  That might be showing how profitable the O&G industry is.
>
>
>
> I'm working with a company we call Breeze <http://www.breezesqueeze.com>.
> It uses compressed air in pipelines to move turbines at power plants.
> Without fossil fuels or using water this is getting a lot of attention.
> There are many advantages such as cold air where compressed air is released
> that can be used by data centers.  25% of all GHGs come from generating
> electricity.  45% of all water used in the US is used to create
> electricity.
>
>
>
> We see this as a better option than Hydrogen.  We do think Hydrogen fuel
> cells are a solution for mobile applications.
>
>
>
> Mike Orshan
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 10:27 AM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 2/6/22 8:31 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
>
> https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/
>
>     *Low-cost fossil fuel resources are finite. Someday it will simply
> not be possible to burn oil, natural gas, and coal for the affordable heat,
> electricity, and motive power humans need to power their prosperous
> societies. *
>
> Must we always begin with the assumption that growth in terms of
> geographical/geometric, material and energy consumption/appropriation are
> requisite to continuing/growing a "prosperous society"?   Tangentially (or
> not), if "green" hydrogen implies a 2:1 ratio of CO2 production to H2 but
> often begins with fossil fuels, it is obviously yet another "kick the can
> down the road" solution.   Harvesting solar and direct-solar/lunar-derived
> energy (including wind, tidal) and channeling it through our living
> (including technological infrastructure and agri-industry) systems to yield
> high-entropy "waste heat" seems to be orders of magnitude more sustainable
> (if still questionable on some very long time-scale limited by a
> Dyson-Sphere-like-limit).    If the H2 is created by cracking H20 (and
> capturing both to be recombined later to release energy) using solar (and
> other renewables) energy it is a *closed cycle*.  One would presume the
> total amount of H2 we would have stored/
>
> From ecology there comes the observed phenomena of "island syndrome" which
> can include island dwarfism and poikilothermy which are both driven by
> reducing the demand on finite resources without giving up function or
> complexity.
>
> From Alexander Payne comes the absurdist SciFi flick Downsizing
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downsizing_(film)#Plot> which postulates
> by shrinking humans by ???-fold (5 inches tall ~= 12:1 in 1 dimension,
> 144:1 in cross section and 1728:1 in volume/mass... )  the movie implies no
> change in metabolic rates which would nominally speed up with "shrinkage",
> yielding (also) shorter lifespans.   Oh well.. Fiction.   But the point
> would seem well taken... Gaia would get a 2000:1 reprieve from our
> *current* energy/mass burden on her systems.
>
> I'm not promoting shrinking people as-such, just noting that our 0th order
> instinct is growth, and supralinear if at all possible, up to and likely
> achieving Kurzweillian asymptotic resource consumption.
>
> On that note, I believe that the myriad technological singularity concepts
> all point toward increased complexity  and downscaling to extend the use of
> material and energy, driving up the effective collective metabolism of "the
> system" and paradoxically *increasing* the rate at which we approach any of
> the jillion ecophagic gray-goo <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo>-like
> scenarios neo-luddites like me might contrive.
>
> I assume (but have not yet poked around for) that Alifers have already
> studied the multi-scale *structure* of negative entropy profiles in complex
> systems-of-systems.   I think Glen has his ear closer to that rail than
> some here?  EricS? ??? I'm still fascinated in the topic but gave up my
> little-toenail-purchase in the community in the early 2000s - Symbiotic
> Intelligence ALifeVI
> <https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~rik/alife6/papers/SY51.html>.   This reads so
> naive yet (mildly) prophetic now...
>
> All is lost! Flee the solar system!
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2022, at 7:20 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> 
>
> Grey hydrogen?
>
>
> https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:
> 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
>
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe>
>
> un/subscribe <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
> archives:
>
>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>
>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:
>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:
>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:
>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:
>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:
>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:
>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20220208/429ed701/attachment.html>