[FRIAM] war footing

Fri Mar 4 14:01:02 EST 2022

but my sign says "Beer is my Spirit Animal"... does that confound things 
a little?

Beer has food value, food has no beer value (except maybe some fresh 
baked yeasty bread)!

On 3/3/22 10:38 AM, glen wrote:
> [sigh] It's not hedonism. Beer is food. Potholes are infrastructure. 
> If you think food and infrastructure are hedonism, then you've got too 
> much money. As I said, food, health, shelter, climate, infrastructure, 
> etc. these things are better foundations for conversation than 
> whatever nonsense is written on your sign.
>
> On 3/3/22 08:55, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not 
>> talking about it?   I don't think I agree that everything can be 
>> boiled down to hedonism.
>> There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that 
>> might bypass other disagreements, but I don't think they are 
>> universal.  And they are only temporary.  The true contempt is there, 
>> I think.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM
>> To: friam at redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
>>
>> Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't 
>> directly engage Russian forces because of the risks associated with 
>> world war or nuclear war. But I'm too ignorant to play that game at 
>> that level. My sentiment is the US should just take out that convoy. 
>> "Bring it on," I guess.
>>
>> But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated 
>> networked in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual 
>> conferences, eHealth, electronic mental health, meditation apps, 
>> Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the righties have been networked by 
>> things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem I'm highlighting 
>> *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such networking has 
>> presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation 
>> between networks.
>>
>> The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and 
>> right in the US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs 
>> right, much like the ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. 
>> Ukrainian citizenship, national identity. Now that the internet has 
>> delivered us ways to perforate abstractions like citizenship and 
>> nation, we need refined or new ways to re-ground such networks in 
>> concrete things like food, shelter, health, climate, and infrastructure.
>>
>> I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting 
>> righties at the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, 
>> I'll be able to ground that interaction in things like beer and 
>> potholes. But the antifa standing next to me won't be interested in 
>> talking to the bearded fat trucker about beer and potholes. That sign 
>> you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's a 
>> fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna 
>> lager. And Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant 
>> compared to whether she had a good time visiting Paris.
>>
>> Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration 
>> indicates.
>>
>> On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> < We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need
>>> tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated*
>>> in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist
>>> citizenhood and such. >
>>>
>>> There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and 
>>> that's with the use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   
>>> The west is not yet prepared to do that, so it has opted for 
>>> collective punishment.   Yeah, I also read those Meduza articles, 
>>> and clearly there are courageous people in Russia trying to stop all 
>>> this.    Although I must admit when Trump was elected, I thought 
>>> isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia and bring 
>>> them to kneel!    I remember thinking in the early '90s that the 
>>> internet could address the problem you highlight, and it hasn't 
>>> delivered on that at all.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
>>> To: friam at redfish.com
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
>>>
>>> OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's 
>>> somehow "flat" or "surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the 
>>> Meduza link, this story also targets the problem:
>>>
>>> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia
>>>
>>> Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the 
>>> "Come Back Alive" charity <https://savelife.in.ua/en/donate/> and 
>>> the similar but anti-violence DAO set up by the Pussy Riot member, 
>>> there needs to be a way to in-group *actual* Russians while 
>>> out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.
>>>
>>> https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-
>>> our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews
>>> -12555968
>>>
>>> In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they 
>>> point out that there are many Ukrainian "creators" you can support 
>>> directly. But we can also support in-group Russians directly, 
>>> encouraging those who reject authoritarianism and act within their 
>>> own tiny little sphere of influence. Without those rhizomic tendrils 
>>> of influence into and *with* our in-group in Russia, ham-handed 
>>> things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, against what 
>>> they associate with "democracy", "liberalism", and "the West". We 
>>> already see this in the rhetoric from our socialist lefties, blaming 
>>> the status of Russian oligarchs on our introduction of neoliberalism 
>>> after the collapse of the USSR. And we see it in the righties at the 
>>> convoy protests, objectifying "liberals" and blaming them for 
>>> positions they don't even really hold.
>>>
>>> These blunt instruments like sanctions are better than, say, bombing 
>>> Moscow, but not by much. They're still too blunt. We won't win the 
>>> socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need tactics that unify 
>>> the geographically/politically *perforated* in-group as a network, 
>>> not according to artificial nationalist citizenhood and such.
>>>
>>> The phrase "hearts and minds" helps, but isn't concrete enough.
>>>
>>> On 3/2/22 16:04, Steve Smith wrote:
>>>> Glen -
>>>>
>>>> I really appreciate your outlining this so well.
>>>>
>>>> It is always easier to imagine that *other people* can magically do
>>>> things that we know from our own experience that we cannot (or 
>>>> choose not to) do.   I also felt very impotent to do much of 
>>>> anything about Trump's tenure except commit to myself (and 
>>>> encourage other fence sitters) to put aside petty ideals and vote 
>>>> *effectively* against Trump in 2020. I voted against Trump in 2016 
>>>> but also Hillary by voting for Green Jill Stein (before I 
>>>> discovered what an anti-vaxxer she is, even as an MD).  I would not 
>>>> have done so if I thought NM could fall to Trump, but if I'd lived 
>>>> in another state where he was a shoo-in I might have also thrown my 
>>>> vote into the "protest" category.  Biden was easier for me than 
>>>> Hillary to accept, even though I'd have chosen any one of about 
>>>> half the big slate in the primaries.  Bernie near the top. I may 
>>>> have talked a few of my more curmudgeonly friends out of voting for 
>>>> a write-in simply because they didn't get Bernie (or Mayor Pete or 
>>>> Tulsi or ...) .   This was one election where the total "popular 
>>>> vote" was important even if it didn't "count" as such.   There were 
>>>> a couple of candidates I'd have had a hard time not passing over in 
>>>> "protest" but not if it was going to change the outcome.
>>>>
>>>> I do think, however, that gumming up Russia's gears, even if it 
>>>> hits the populace hard is important.   Making the clear, 
>>>> unequivocal statement that Authoritarian Belligerence isn't 
>>>> welcome.   I was shamed by the US under Trump (and Bush for that 
>>>> matter) but did not begrudge my shamers... I did (do) feel 
>>>> responsible for what my country does in my name, even if/though I 
>>>> feel fairly disempowered in most specific ways.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt that the Russian citizenry is suffering any more than the 
>>>> Ukranian citizenry, and insomuch as many of them are 
>>>> friends/family, there are surely things *they* can do to help 
>>>> Ukrainians that is hard for the likes of you or me to do.  That 
>>>> doesn't mean I shouldn't try, though I do moderate that by the 
>>>> myriad *other* things i should be doing both domestic and foreign 
>>>> with my first-world privilege.
>>>>
>>>> If we can make it out the other side of this without a devastating 
>>>> (or even trivial but earthshaking) nuclear exchange, I hope it 
>>>> leads to many rethinking the size of the world's nuclear 
>>>> stockpile.   I just saw a headline that implied that Belarus was 
>>>> going to host some of Russia's nukes.  It was *the right thing* for 
>>>> Ukraine to give up the nukes on it's soil at the end of cold war, 
>>>> but imagine how things would look (better or worse) if Russia knew 
>>>> that Ukraine held a handful of nukes? Time to disarm ourselves...
>>>>
>>>> -Steve
>>>>
>>>>> This video brings home, to me, the inherent conflict with "do what 
>>>>> it takes to ...":
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm Russian I want the rest of the world to hear me out
>>>>> https://youtu.be/FUE40mkEYeo
>>>>>
>>>>> Even though I'm worried she's a plant, she makes the valid point 
>>>>> that things like sanctions don't hurt the ultra wealthy. And in a 
>>>>> country where the elections really are rigged (or you're young 
>>>>> enough to have had no way to intervene before the gravity well 
>>>>> became inescapable), what does it mean to "do what it takes to 
>>>>> ..."? The last number I heard was Russian authorities arrested 
>>>>> 2700 protesters. And given guys like Magomed Tushayev 
>>>>> <https://www.jpost.com/international/article-699032>, the gods 
>>>>> only know what else has happened.
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean, I felt pretty impotent with Trump as President. And I'm a 
>>>>> relatively well-off white male in a relatively trustworthy 
>>>>> democracy. What hope do those fed up with Putin and his government 
>>>>> have? Only the hopes of coming years, if not decades of poverty, 
>>>>> protesting, and bearing the risk of dying in jail or at the hands 
>>>>> of a Tushayev?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/2/22 14:59, Steve Smith wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like to hope that the net effect of Putin's nonsense on the 
>>>>>> heels of Trump&Co's nonsense is that everyone else might actually 
>>>>>> get fed up with Authoritarian capriciousness and do what it takes 
>>>>>> to shove it out the airlock and get on with our lives w/o so much 
>>>>>> of the toxic something-ulinity.
>>>>>>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: OpenPGP_0xFD82820D1AAECDAE.asc
Type: application/pgp-keys
Size: 3122 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP public key
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20220304/e3b5ed5f/attachment.bin>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: OpenPGP_signature
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 840 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20220304/e3b5ed5f/attachment.sig>