[FRIAM] Fwd: Black holes may hide an odd secret about our universe

glen gepropella at gmail.com
Fri Oct 14 12:12:55 EDT 2022


Re: observer/subject independence - I was reintroduced to this today:

Relational Quantum Mechanics
https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9609002v2

But going back to separating something like Geometric Unity from a typical Gish gallop, this article:

Once again: A misguided article on why the theory of evolution is obsolete
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2022/06/29/once-again-a-misguided-article-on-why-the-theory-of-evolution-is-obsolete/

is a good response to the Guardian article. I confess to thinking working scientists actually *do* use the word "Darwinist" to describe themselves. But I now guess it's an artifact of ... outreach? ... publicity? ... "antidisciplinarity"<https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08956308.2017.1373047>? ... whatever you want to call it.


On 10/12/22 19:07, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> It makes sense if experimenters are not independent.
> 
>> On Oct 12, 2022, at 4:03 PM, Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> You're following too much click bait, follow only healthy links to substantial content and you'll be fine.
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 3:20 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     What a depressing article.  I'm not sure why.
>>
>>     ---
>>     Frank C. Wimberly
>>     140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>     Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>>     505 670-9918
>>     Santa Fe, NM
>>
>>     ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>     From: *The New York Times* <nytdirect at nytimes.com <mailto:nytdirect at nytimes.com>>
>>     Date: Wed, Oct 12, 2022, 6:00 AM
>>     Subject: Black holes may hide an odd secret about our universe
>>     To: <wimberly3 at berkeley.edu <mailto:wimberly3 at berkeley.edu>>
>>
>>
>>     __
>>     Research revealed connections between two views of the cosmos.
>>     View in browser <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/8bbNlWeJGEy7GiCdZrE2Jw~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP4Q3AWh0dHBzOi8vbWVzc2FnaW5nLWN1c3RvbS1uZXdzbGV0dGVycy5ueXRpbWVzLmNvbS90ZW1wbGF0ZS9vYWt2Mj9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD0xOTAmZW1jPWVkaXRfdWZuXzIwMjIxMDEyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTc0MzcwJm5sPXVwZGF0ZXMtZnJvbS10aGUtbmV3c3Jvb20mcHJvZHVjdENvZGU9VUZOJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NzgzNjE4MTImc2VnbWVudF9pZD0xMDk3MjYmdGU9MSZ1cmk9bnl0JTNBJTJGJTJGbmV3c2xldHRlciUyRmQxOThjMzcxLTcwZTQtNTVhZi05YmI3LWFkYTYyYmZlNDJkMiZ1c2VyX2lkPWZmNjdjMjlkMDIyYjM0YWQxYWFhMWY2ZGQ2NDQ4MDdjVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~>|nytimes.com <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/ETBYXA_-FEUmC5uYIzHK8w~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0S-aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vP2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTE5MCZlbWM9ZWRpdF91Zm5fMjAyMjEwMTImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9NzQzNzAmbmw9dXBkYXRlcy1mcm9tLXRoZS1uZXdzcm9vbSZyZWdpX2lkPTc4MzYxODEyJnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9MTA5NzI2JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD1mZjY3YzI5ZDAyMmIzNGFkMWFhYTFmNmRkNjQ0ODA3Y1cDbnl0QgpjRV-sRmOVPaWiUhZ3aW1iZXJseTNAYmVya2VsZXkuZWR1WAQAAAAA>
>>     Continue reading the main story <#m_3497075341880264527_m_2986547978703279203_a11y-skip-ad-marquee>
>>     <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/frsHTHhG3rYOJyioH3U04w~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0RvaHR0cHM6Ly9saXZlaW50ZW50Lm5ld3lvcmt0aW1lc2luZm8uY29tL2NsaWNrP3M9ODU5ODcwJmxpPVVGTiZtPWZmNjdjMjlkMDIyYjM0YWQxYWFhMWY2ZGQ2NDQ4MDdjJnA9VUZOXzIwMjIxMDEyVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~>
>>
>>     October 12, 2022
>>
>>     Take gravity, add quantum mechanics, stir. What do you get? A holographic cosmos. Maybe.
>>
>>     OUT THERE
>>
>>     Article Image
>>
>>     Leonardo Santamaria
>>
>>     <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/XFYleijQyK1EJ7aJBQHLbg~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0T0aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMi8xMC8xMC9zY2llbmNlL2JsYWNrLWhvbGVzLWNvc21vbG9neS1ob2xvZ3JhbS5odG1sP2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTE5MCZlbWM9ZWRpdF91Zm5fMjAyMjEwMTImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9NzQzNzAmbmw9dXBkYXRlcy1mcm9tLXRoZS1uZXdzcm9vbSZyZWdpX2lkPTc4MzYxODEyJnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9MTA5NzI2JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD1mZjY3YzI5ZDAyMmIzNGFkMWFhYTFmNmRkNjQ0ODA3Y1cDbnl0QgpjRV-sRmOVPaWiUhZ3aW1iZXJseTNAYmVya2VsZXkuZWR1WAQAAAAA> 	
>>
>>
>>           Gravity and quantum mechanics have long seemed to have nothing to do with each other. Should that be rethought? →
>>
>>     <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/XFYleijQyK1EJ7aJBQHLbg~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0T0aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMi8xMC8xMC9zY2llbmNlL2JsYWNrLWhvbGVzLWNvc21vbG9neS1ob2xvZ3JhbS5odG1sP2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTE5MCZlbWM9ZWRpdF91Zm5fMjAyMjEwMTImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9NzQzNzAmbmw9dXBkYXRlcy1mcm9tLXRoZS1uZXdzcm9vbSZyZWdpX2lkPTc4MzYxODEyJnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9MTA5NzI2JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD1mZjY3YzI5ZDAyMmIzNGFkMWFhYTFmNmRkNjQ0ODA3Y1cDbnl0QgpjRV-sRmOVPaWiUhZ3aW1iZXJseTNAYmVya2VsZXkuZWR1WAQAAAAA>
>>
>>     Get stories that capture the wonders of nature, the cosmos and the human body. 	
>>
>>     Sign up for Science Times
>>
>>     Get stories that capture the wonders of nature, the cosmos and the human body.
>>
>>     Get it in your inbox <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/a9RPnakKsrEWbqVLbX1xDw~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TwaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vbmV3c2xldHRlcnM_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MTkwJmVtYz1lZGl0X3Vmbl8yMDIyMTAxMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD03NDM3MCZuZXdzbGV0dGVyX3NpZ251cD10cnVlJm5sPXVwZGF0ZXMtZnJvbS10aGUtbmV3c3Jvb20mcHJvZHVjdF9jb2RlPVNDJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NzgzNjE4MTImc2VnbWVudF9pZD0xMDk3MjYmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPWZmNjdjMjlkMDIyYjM0YWQxYWFhMWY2ZGQ2NDQ4MDdjVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~>
>>
>>     Continue reading the main story <#m_3497075341880264527_m_2986547978703279203_a11y-skip-universal-0>
>>
>>     <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/c5bznirpero7DE9EdGON_A~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0RvaHR0cHM6Ly9saXZlaW50ZW50Lm5ld3lvcmt0aW1lc2luZm8uY29tL2NsaWNrP3M9ODU5Mjk1JmxpPVVGTiZtPWZmNjdjMjlkMDIyYjM0YWQxYWFhMWY2ZGQ2NDQ4MDdjJnA9VUZOXzIwMjIxMDEyVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~>
>>
>>     Continue reading the main story <#m_3497075341880264527_m_2986547978703279203_a11y-skip-tracking_unit-1>
>>
>>     				
>>
>>     Need help? Review our newsletter help page <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/mm6p-nu-BlMTJ7glELPiLg~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TpaHR0cHM6Ly9oZWxwLm55dGltZXMuY29tL2hjL2VuLXVzL2FydGljbGVzLzM2MDAwMTQ4ODI2Ni1OZXdzbGV0dGVycz9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD0xOTAmZW1jPWVkaXRfdWZuXzIwMjIxMDEyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTc0MzcwJm5sPXVwZGF0ZXMtZnJvbS10aGUtbmV3c3Jvb20mcmVnaV9pZD03ODM2MTgxMiZzZWdtZW50X2lkPTEwOTcyNiZ0ZT0xJnVzZXJfaWQ9ZmY2N2MyOWQwMjJiMzRhZDFhYWExZjZkZDY0NDgwN2NXA255dEIKY0VfrEZjlT2lolIWd2ltYmVybHkzQGJlcmtlbGV5LmVkdVgEAAAAAA~~> or contact us <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/i5ph6s2n7PoK1BNXkqpS7Q~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0ToaHR0cHM6Ly9oZWxwLm55dGltZXMuY29tL2hjL2VuLXVzL2FydGljbGVzLzExNTAxNTM4NTg4Ny1Db250YWN0LXVzP2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTE5MCZlbWM9ZWRpdF91Zm5fMjAyMjEwMTImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9NzQzNzAmbmw9dXBkYXRlcy1mcm9tLXRoZS1uZXdzcm9vbSZyZWdpX2lkPTc4MzYxODEyJnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9MTA5NzI2JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD1mZjY3YzI5ZDAyMmIzNGFkMWFhYTFmNmRkNjQ0ODA3Y1cDbnl0QgpjRV-sRmOVPaWiUhZ3aW1iZXJseTNAYmVya2VsZXkuZWR1WAQAAAAA> for assistance.
>>
>>     You received this message because you signed up for updates from The New York Times.
>>
>>     To stop receiving these emails, unsubscribe <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/jM3lRX3jiEIoss50nNCK5Q~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TZaHR0cHM6Ly9teWFjY291bnQubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vc2VnL3Vuc3Vic2NyaWJlL1VGTi80OGQ4YWIxZDIwZGQ2Y2FmNDhmNTk0YjZhY2I0YjBmYzM4ZWM2OTI0ZGE1OGI5NTFlMDY4NmZkMzAwOWVjYWY0YzhhYjcwNTI3YTU2NDg5YWMzY2NkZDJjMzk5NDgzMDQ_ZW1jPWVkaXRfdWZuXzIwMjIxMDEyJm5sPXVwZGF0ZXMtZnJvbS10aGUtbmV3c3Jvb20mc2VuZF9pZD0xMDk3MjYmdGU9MVcDbnl0QgpjRV-sRmOVPaWiUhZ3aW1iZXJseTNAYmVya2VsZXkuZWR1WAQAAAAA> or manage your email preferences <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/8ExngxiPUmOVoQuXwgtftQ~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TDaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vZW1haWw_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MTkwJmVtYz1lZGl0X3Vmbl8yMDIyMTAxMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD03NDM3MCZubD11cGRhdGVzLWZyb20tdGhlLW5ld3Nyb29tJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NzgzNjE4MTImc2VnbWVudF9pZD0xMDk3MjYmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPWZmNjdjMjlkMDIyYjM0YWQxYWFhMWY2ZGQ2NDQ4MDdjVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~>.
>>
>>     Subscribe to The Times <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/9xB5yyes-lEKGo_2WtEU8A~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TbaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uP2NhbXBhaWduSWQ9OVJYNzgmY2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MTkwJmVtYz1lZGl0X3Vmbl8yMDIyMTAxMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD03NDM3MCZubD11cGRhdGVzLWZyb20tdGhlLW5ld3Nyb29tJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NzgzNjE4MTImc2VnbWVudF9pZD0xMDk3MjYmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPWZmNjdjMjlkMDIyYjM0YWQxYWFhMWY2ZGQ2NDQ4MDdjVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~>Get The New York Times app <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/sK9_4_pM0Q34w1NnU_wCkw~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TYaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vc2VydmljZXMvbW9iaWxlL2luZGV4Lmh0bWw_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MTkwJmVtYz1lZGl0X3Vmbl8yMDIyMTAxMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD03NDM3MCZubD11cGRhdGVzLWZyb20tdGhlLW5ld3Nyb29tJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NzgzNjE4MTImc2VnbWVudF9pZD0xMDk3MjYmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPWZmNjdjMjlkMDIyYjM0YWQxYWFhMWY2ZGQ2NDQ4MDdjVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~>
>>
>>     Connect with us on:
>>
>>     	facebook <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/cu49QttJEPyxudGx76XIKQ~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TGaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZmFjZWJvb2suY29tL255dGltZXM_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MTkwJmVtYz1lZGl0X3Vmbl8yMDIyMTAxMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD03NDM3MCZubD11cGRhdGVzLWZyb20tdGhlLW5ld3Nyb29tJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NzgzNjE4MTImc2VnbWVudF9pZD0xMDk3MjYmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPWZmNjdjMjlkMDIyYjM0YWQxYWFhMWY2ZGQ2NDQ4MDdjVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~> 	twitter <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/FtycKam5cSWGYxnNxi1iKg~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TBaHR0cHM6Ly90d2l0dGVyLmNvbS9ueXRpbWVzP2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTE5MCZlbWM9ZWRpdF91Zm5fMjAyMjEwMTImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9NzQzNzAmbmw9dXBkYXRlcy1mcm9tLXRoZS1uZXdzcm9vbSZyZWdpX2lkPTc4MzYxODEyJnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9MTA5NzI2JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD1mZjY3YzI5ZDAyMmIzNGFkMWFhYTFmNmRkNjQ0ODA3Y1cDbnl0QgpjRV-sRmOVPaWiUhZ3aW1iZXJseTNAYmVya2VsZXkuZWR1WAQAAAAA> 	instagram
>>     <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/FbxNgxlEed4SMhw14RehAA~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TIaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaW5zdGFncmFtLmNvbS9ueXRpbWVzLz9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD0xOTAmZW1jPWVkaXRfdWZuXzIwMjIxMDEyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTc0MzcwJm5sPXVwZGF0ZXMtZnJvbS10aGUtbmV3c3Jvb20mcmVnaV9pZD03ODM2MTgxMiZzZWdtZW50X2lkPTEwOTcyNiZ0ZT0xJnVzZXJfaWQ9ZmY2N2MyOWQwMjJiMzRhZDFhYWExZjZkZDY0NDgwN2NXA255dEIKY0VfrEZjlT2lolIWd2ltYmVybHkzQGJlcmtlbGV5LmVkdVgEAAAAAA~~>
>>
>>     Change Your Email <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/w4X-7iT1g-vqxRG-zFOqjg~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TSaHR0cHM6Ly9teWFjY291bnQubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vbWVtL2VtYWlsLmh0bWw_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MTkwJmVtYz1lZGl0X3Vmbl8yMDIyMTAxMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD03NDM3MCZubD11cGRhdGVzLWZyb20tdGhlLW5ld3Nyb29tJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NzgzNjE4MTImc2VnbWVudF9pZD0xMDk3MjYmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPWZmNjdjMjlkMDIyYjM0YWQxYWFhMWY2ZGQ2NDQ4MDdjVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~>Privacy Policy <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/irKSjaBN1zviaUC__tyKCw~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TzaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ueXRpbWVzLmNvbS9jb250ZW50L2hlbHAvcmlnaHRzL3ByaXZhY3kvcG9saWN5L3ByaXZhY3ktcG9saWN5Lmh0bWw_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MTkwJmVtYz1lZGl0X3Vmbl8yMDIyMTAxMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD03NDM3MCZubD11cGRhdGVzLWZyb20tdGhlLW5ld3Nyb29tJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NzgzNjE4MTImc2VnbWVudF9pZD0xMDk3MjYmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPWZmNjdjMjlkMDIyYjM0YWQxYWFhMWY2ZGQ2NDQ4MDdjVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~>Contact Us
>>     <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/lQLHLxzS1Uo0Lm-BqXut0g~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TaaHR0cHM6Ly9teWFjY291bnQubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vbWVtYmVyY2VudGVyL2hlbHAuaHRtbD9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD0xOTAmZW1jPWVkaXRfdWZuXzIwMjIxMDEyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTc0MzcwJm5sPXVwZGF0ZXMtZnJvbS10aGUtbmV3c3Jvb20mcmVnaV9pZD03ODM2MTgxMiZzZWdtZW50X2lkPTEwOTcyNiZ0ZT0xJnVzZXJfaWQ9ZmY2N2MyOWQwMjJiMzRhZDFhYWExZjZkZDY0NDgwN2NXA255dEIKY0VfrEZjlT2lolIWd2ltYmVybHkzQGJlcmtlbGV5LmVkdVgEAAAAAA~~>California Notices <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/3YPW9NLPPL885EkK3VEmzg~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0TXaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vcHJpdmFjeS9jYWxpZm9ybmlhLW5vdGljZT9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD0xOTAmZW1jPWVkaXRfdWZuXzIwMjIxMDEyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTc0MzcwJm5sPXVwZGF0ZXMtZnJvbS10aGUtbmV3c3Jvb20mcmVnaV9pZD03ODM2MTgxMiZzZWdtZW50X2lkPTEwOTcyNiZ0ZT0xJnVzZXJfaWQ9ZmY2N2MyOWQwMjJiMzRhZDFhYWExZjZkZDY0NDgwN2NXA255dEIKY0VfrEZjlT2lolIWd2ltYmVybHkzQGJlcmtlbGV5LmVkdVgEAAAAAA~~>
>>
>>     LiveIntent Logo <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/zXYfCvY6pYoUTPsuBhK2iQ~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0RdaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubGl2ZWludGVudC5jb20vcG93ZXJlZC1ieT90ZT0xJm5sPXVwZGF0ZXMtZnJvbS10aGUtbmV3c3Jvb20mZW1jPWVkaXRfdWZuXzIwMjIxMDEyVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~>AdChoices Logo <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/2vLN-yPHdMB7Mk4LeO-uZw~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRlKTFfP0RdaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubGl2ZWludGVudC5jb20vYWQtY2hvaWNlcz90ZT0xJm5sPXVwZGF0ZXMtZnJvbS10aGUtbmV3c3Jvb20mZW1jPWVkaXRfdWZuXzIwMjIxMDEyVwNueXRCCmNFX6xGY5U9paJSFndpbWJlcmx5M0BiZXJrZWxleS5lZHVYBAAAAAA~>
>>
>>     The New York Times Company. 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018

-- 
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ



More information about the Friam mailing list