[FRIAM] naive question
Marcus Daniels
marcus at snoutfarm.com
Fri Oct 21 11:47:44 EDT 2022
Numerics in JavaScript. Messed-up.
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2022 8:43 AM
To: friam at redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] naive question
Just for example. I run my fib.js twice wrapped by time and get:
gepr at elric:~/lang/js$ time ./fib.js 100
354224848179262000000
real 0m0.148s
user 0m0.137s
sys 0m0.013s
gepr at elric:~/lang/js$ time ./fib.js 100
354224848179262000000
real 0m0.134s
user 0m0.116s
sys 0m0.020s
strace also shows quite a bit of difference:
gepr at elric:~/lang/js$ strace ./fib.js 100 2> fibout1
354224848179262000000
gepr at elric:~/lang/js$ strace ./fib.js 100 2> fibout2
354224848179262000000
gepr at elric:~/lang/js$ diff -C0 fibout?|wc -l
1331
On 10/21/22 08:16, glen wrote:
> No, not even from the user's perspective. The time program helps show how much system, process, and user time is executed by the same script on different systems. This is especially important on multi-user systems, but any system that allows multiple processes will show differences. I suggest you run your script, wrapped by time or strace on the different systems and examine the output.
>
> Now, *you* as the user, may not have noticed the differences in execution time or resource use. But *you* would not be the canonical Unix user, if that's the case. >8^D Hell, even on VMS, we were plagued with differences between successive executions of various scripts. That you didn't notice such is interesting.
>
> On 10/21/22 08:08, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> Yes. From the user's perspective they ran identically. Those workstations didn't even have the same instruction sets.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2022, 8:24 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> By "ran identically", you actually mean "produced identical outputs". They didn't run identically. Simple ways to see this are system and process monitors, top, strace, etc.
>>
>> On 10/20/22 17:19, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> > Back in the 80s I wrote many Unix shell scripts. For my purposes they ran identically on various workstations whether Sun, SG, or, eventually, Vax (running Unix). The software existed in my mind/brain, in files in the various filesystems, or on paper listings. What's wrong with my thinking?
>> >
>> > Frank
>> >
>> > ---
>> > Frank C. Wimberly
>> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> >
>> > 505 670-9918
>> > Santa Fe, NM
>> >
>> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 3:52 PM glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I can't speak for anyone else. I'm a simulationist. Everything I do is in terms of analogy [⛧]. But there is no such thing as a fully transparent or opaque box. And there is no such thing as "software". All processes are executed by some material mechanism. So if by "computational metaphor", you mean the tossing out of the differences between any 2 machines executing the same code, then I'm right there with you in rejecting it. No 2 machines can execute the same (identical) code. But if you define an analogy well, then you can replace one machine with another machine, up to some similarity criterion. Equivalence is defined by that similarity criterion. By your use of the qualifier "merely" in "merely the equivalent", I infer you think there's something *other* than equivalence, something other than simulation. I reject that. It's all equivalence, just some tighter and some looser.
>> >
>> > [⛧] Everyone's welcome to replace "analogy" with "metaphor" if they so choose. But, to me, "metaphor" tends to wipe away or purposefully ignore the pragmatics involved in distinguishing any 2 members of an equivalence class. The literary concept of "metaphor" has it right. It's a rhetorical, manipulative trick to help us ignore actual difference, whereas "analogy" helps us remember and account for differences and similarities. "Metaphor" is an evil word, a crucial tool in the toolkit for manipulators and gaslighters.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10/20/22 13:27, Prof David West wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Marcus and glen (and others on occasion) have posted frequently on the "algorithmic "equivalent" of [some feature] of consciousness, human emotion, etc.
>> > >
>> > > I am always confronted with the question of of "how equivalent?" I am almost certain that they are not saying anything close to absolute equivalence - i.e., that the brain/mind is executing the same algorithm albeit in, perhaps, a different programming language. But, are their assertions meant to be "analogous to," "a metaphor for," or some other semi/pseudo equivalence?
>> > >
>> > > Perhaps all that is being said is we have two black boxes into which we put the same inputs and arrive at the same outputs. Voila! We expose the contents of one black box, an algorithm executing on silicon. From that we conclude it does not matter what is happening inside the other black box—whatever it is, our, now, white box is an 'equivalent'.
>> > >
>> > > Put another way: If I have two objects, A and B, each with an (ir)regular edge. in this case the irregular edge of A is an inverse match to that of B—when put together there are no gaps between the two edges. They "fit."
>> > >
>> > > Assume that A and B have some means to detect if they "fit" together. I can think of algorithms that could determine fit, a simplistic iteration across all points to see if there was a gap between it and its neighbor, to some kind of collision detection.
>> > >
>> > > Is it the case that whatever means used by A and B to detect fit, it is _*/merely/*_ the equivalent of such an algorithm?
>> > >
>> > > The roots of this question go back to my first two published papers, in _AI Magazine_ (then the 'journal of record' for AI research); one critical of the computational metaphor, the second a set of alternative metaphors of mind. An excerpt relevant to the above example of fit.
>> > >
>> > > /Tactilizing Processor
>> > > /
>> > > /Conrad draws his inspiration from the ability of an enzyme to combine with a substrate on the basis of the physical congruency of their respective shapes (topography). This is a generalized version of the lock-and-key mechanism as the hormone-receptor matching discussed by Bergland. When the topographic shape of an enzyme (hormone) matches that of a substrate (receptor), a simple recognize- by-touch mechanism (like two pieces of a puzzle fitting together) allows a simple decision, binary state change, or process to take place, hence the label “tactilizing processor.”/
>> > >
>> > > Hormones and enzymes, probably/possibly, lack the ability to compute (execute algorithms), so, at most, the black box equivalence might be used here.
>> > >
>> > > [BTW, tactilizing processors were built, but were extremely slow (speed of chemical reactions) but had some advantages derived from parallelism. Similar 'shape matching' computation was explored in DNA computing as well.]
>> > >
>> > > My interest in the issue is the (naive) question about how our understanding of mind/consciousness is fatally impeded by putting all our research eggs into the simplistic 'algorithm box'?
>> > >
>> > > It seems to me that we have the CS/AI/ML equivalent of the quantum physics world where everyone is told to "shut up and compute" instead of actually trying to understand the domain and the theory.
>> > >
>> > > davew
>
>
--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
More information about the Friam
mailing list