[FRIAM] Turning Psychology into a Social Science

[Frank Wimberly]

Saw this on Facebook

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ogQSsx7ahJ2utqdR8

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 5:31 PM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

> As usual, I wasn't seeking anything near as crisp as I think you are.   I
> was merely making the observation that norm-to-norm, we often smear one
> into another.   I think your "hearing voices" example is quite apt:
>
> https://www.hearing-voices.org/
>
> I think I agree with your implication that at best there may be a spectrum
> of "mental states" which go from "pro-social" to "anti-social" in any given
> social context.   When first I encountered the term "neurodiverse" I felt
> relieved of the need/habit/expectation to classify every behaviour or
> presentation or implied mental state as "healthy or unhealthy".
>
> That does not, however, imply that mental states (or complexes of them?)
> can't also be on a range from "pro-survival" to "anti-survival" (again, in
> a given physical context).    The basis vectors of social and physical
> surely overlap...    for example, "running out in front of a stampeding
> buffalo herd and waving your arms wildly" is not particularly conducive to
> individual survival when done in isolation, however, when done in
> coordination with a tribe of spear-wielding hunters and a blind canyon or
> cliff, maybe it is *highly* pro-survival (as well as pro-social).  Or maybe
> for some it is just "anxiety relief" before bungee jumping was invented?
>
> What I was trying to highlight maybe was what you more succinctly stated:
>
> "anything we classify as "mental illness" is hopelessly ill-defined and
> would be better defined in terms of context"
>
> On 1/24/23 5:01 PM, glen wrote:
>
> I triggered when I read this and I'm not sure why. I think it's because,
> in order to well-define some concept of "mental", you have to isolate it
> from other things ... like "body" or environment. This might even go so far
> as to isolate it from the biochemical processes in the brain.
>
> If you refuse to isolate it, then there's no such thing as "mental",
> except as an abstraction from body, environment, social interaction, etc.
> That makes your inference trivial. If you accept the isolation, then the
> mental can be independent of the social, which refutes your inference [⛧].
>
> And I don't *think* it matters where you draw the isolation boundary. It
> could be that biochemical/electric in the brain is (part of) the mental,
> but we isolate that from the body. Or it could be that mental is (in part)
> the brain and the body, but we isolate the organism from its environment.
> Etc. In each case, the inference you make is either trivial or refuted.
>
> Perhaps what you're actually expressing is that there is no such thing as
> "mental"; and that anything we classify as "mental illness" is hopelessly
> ill-defined and would be better defined in terms of context. Whether that
> context is brain+body+environment or just environment doesn't matter so
> much as the identifying of "mental" as a fiction.
>
>
> [⛧] Refutes it in the absence of some clarifying premise that you may have
> left out. E.g. if you added a shared values premise, say, that most people
> don't hear voices, so it's "healthy" to not hear voices, but ill to hear
> voices, then there can be "mental illness". If you really don't have an
> unstated premise about mental norms or somesuch, and any mental state can
> be just as OK as any other mental state, then it refutes it by nonsense. No
> "mental illness" means no way to bind it to the social.
>
> On 1/24/23 15:40, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> I have also held the un(der)founded opinion that a great deal of what we
> consider to be a *mental* illness is actually a *social* illness:  the
> cognitive dissonance experienced with one's social context can be something
> "wrong" with both/either the individual or their context.
>
>
>
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