[FRIAM] cults

[glen]

All reasonable, as is Steve's suggestion that socially stable options for identification can be dynamic/emergent (e.g. populism's various forms). But I'd argue that one cannot build one's own identity/narrative in a quiet space ... hedging a bit on what "quiet" might mean. This article was interesting:

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2023/10/why-i-dont-have-pronouns-in-my-bio/

"Ironically, my experience of interpellation might itself reflect how I am interpellated. Us WEIRD people are individualists, and we’re individualists because social forces make us this kind of being. If I weren’t interpellated as an individualist, I probably wouldn’t feel uncomfortable at being interpellated as the kind of subject I am. Interpellation as an individualist is a kind of ironic interpellation: it’s inherently unstable insofar as it leaves the interpellation person unhappy with their interpellation on the grounds that it is interpellation. Nevertheless, my discomfort is real."

The idea that _one_ might be able to settle on a narrative somewhat isolated from the ambient goo indicates a conclusion embedded in the premise of individualism. Rather, I'd argue there is no such thing as an individual. There is no self to "dissolve" and any narrative construct that seems to be an individual is, at least, fraught with loopy causation or, at worst, incoherent. So while I like the idea that some individuals are more robust against modal identification, it relies on a flimsy approximation to the real situation.

With internet, we _are_ no longer what we would be without internet. Counterfactuals are useful, but only actionable in the most antisceptic environments (e.g. randomized controlled trials)..

On 10/4/23 07:57, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> If there were no internet, the MAGA, QANON and the anti-WHO/UN folks would find it harder to maintain a narrative.   With social media they can find people to mirror the craziest ideas and leaders to reveal them.   Musk says the same is true on the left and woke.
> 
> Parochialism is another way that ungrounded beliefs find comfort.   Members protect their bubble enforcing norms and being antagonistic to people that are different.  Typically in spatial vicinities.
> 
> In both cases, participants adopt a group story instead of building their own.  If they were required to build their own story in a quiet space, they might learn to think and be less reliant on a social role to maintain self esteem.
> 
> Enforcing this could be done with a DMZ, or it could be done with some indoctrination about the risks of groupthink and the benefits of stoicism and scientism.
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2023, at 6:52 AM, glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, there is no such thing as a "mind virus". It's a bad metaphor. But Steve's right that we're (at least) modal in our non-rationality, flipping this way and that according to whatever criticality presents itself. The 09A concept of culling seems to me similar to Musk's elitism ... a Nietzschean conceit.
>>
>>> On 10/3/23 09:23, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> I realized I kind of agree with Musk about the benefits of more isolation.
>>> https://twitter.com/i/status/1625732016896458755
>>> However, national boundaries are not the right cutoff.   Any community or cult is the potential nucleation of a mind virus.
>>> I expect his advocacy above is about creating chaos so that people such as himself are the only ones that have the resources to influence governments.
>>> A particularly virulent mind virus (like white supremacy, or 09A) could cross national boundaries and not be impeded by law enforcement.
>>> What does the world look like if P% of the population has broad resistance to mind viruses and (100-P)% does not?
>>> If P is <= 10, maybe better to fan the flames of crazy and let the chips fall where they may.  Perhaps that is how Musk sees it.
>>> Marcus
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 1, 2023 6:37 AM
>>> To: FriAM <friam at redfish.com>
>>> Subject: [FRIAM] cults
>>> It's been awhile since I've run across a new-to-me cult. But 09A certainly qualifies as a meaty one:
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/28/new-york-satanic-cult-764-fbi
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Nine_Angles
>>> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1057610X.2023.2195065
>>> I can't reconcile the apparent contradiction between fascism and individuality. I guess the closest some analysts come is to suggest that they're only aligning with the fascists, for now, to bring about the end of the current aeon and the colonization of the galaxy.
>>> I guess it reminds me of the "no enemies to the [right|left]" rhetoric: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/30/conservative-christopher-rufo-florida-twitter-debate
>>> But otherwise, O9A's ... "beliefs and structure" seem incoherent enough to write them off as just too stupid to care about. However one author nailed it in saying that there are plenty of both impressionable and antisocial people using the internet, susceptible to the "sinister" allure, to cause real damage.
>>


-- 
glen