[FRIAM] When are telic attributions appropriate in physical descriptions?

[Nicholas Thompson]

sorry I should have said "events" instead of "things".

n

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:15 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> A law is not a cause;  it is a relation between a class of things caused
> and those things' "causer".
>
> N
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:12 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yes.  Because the verb require is intenSional and takes a proposition as
>> its object.  Thus, if you graph the sentence, it really goes "Physical Law
>> requires [that momentum be conserved]"   Who is physical law to do that?
>>
>> I would say that in saying it that way you have introduced a category
>> error.  Physical laws don't compel obedience.  they are themselves the
>> overarching sum of such obedience.
>>
>> Why not simply, "Everywhere momentum is conserved and that fact
>> constitutes a law that governs our behavior if we want to successfully
>> manipulate the world."   If we choose to manipulate the world successfully,
>> the facts require us to expect that momentum will in all cases be
>> conserved.   The compulsion is from facts to us, rather than from the law
>> to the facts.
>>
>> Are there important exceptions to my belief that laws have no causal
>> properties?  That we are not in need of such an hypothesis?
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> N
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:54 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The puck conserves angular momentum as required by the physical law.  Is
>>> that telic language?
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:10 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Phellow Phriammers,
>>>>
>>>> Ever since the days of Hywel White (GRHS) I have puzzled over the fact
>>>> that telic language so often appears in physics discussions.  I used to
>>>> tease Hywel that Psychology must be the Mother of Physics, because he had
>>>> to use psychological terms to describe the motion of particles. More
>>>> recently, I have the same sort of discussions with Stephen Guerin who wants
>>>> to use telic language concerning the path of photons and least action.  (I
>>>> hope I have this right, Stephen).  You all have been tempted to think I am
>>>> just trolling, but I don't think  I am.  I think there may be  places where
>>>> such descriptions are appropriate.  I do think, for instance, that the
>>>> relation between the first derivative of a function and any point in that
>>>> function is analogous to the relation between the motivation of a behavior
>>>> and the behavior  itself.
>>>>
>>>> i am back to weather again, after a vacation from it for my obsession
>>>> with unsuccessful vegetable gardening.   Here is a quote from an
>>>> Atmospheric Dynamics text which is laying out the Coriolis Force.
>>>>
>>>> *What happens if we consider the hockey puck moving equator-ward
>>>> relative to  the rotation of the Earth. In the absence of applied forces it
>>>> must conserve angular momentum.  Upon being pulled equator-ward in the
>>>> northern hemisphere the radius of rotation of the puck begins to
>>>> increase.Consequently, an anti-rotational relative motion develops in order
>>>> to conserve angular momentum, [Italics by NST]  *
>>>>
>>>> In the view of folks on this list, is this an appropriate use of telic
>>>> language, and why or why not? Stephen has a defensible argument in favor of
>>>> it's appropriateness, the only such argument I have ever heard.  ( I don[t
>>>> buy the premises, but the argument is sound)  I am wondering about the rest
>>>> of you.
>>>>
>>>> Nick
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>> Clark University
>>
>
>
> --
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> Clark University
>


-- 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
Clark University
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